The TdM minor cards in "The Tarot of the Bohemians"

kenji

Hello all :)

In the English translation of "The Tarot of the Bohemians" by Papus,
there are the pictures of TdM minor cards, which have ENGLISH TITLES:

WANDS: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/img/03600.jpg
CUPS: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/img/04201.jpg
SWORDS: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/img/04400.jpg
PENTACLES: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/img/04801.jpg

It seems these cards were already shown in the first edition of Morton's
translation, published by Chapman and Hall in 1892.

Does anyone know about this deck?
It looks a Conver-type TdM, but must have been published in Britain
for thay have English titles (above all, "PENTACLES"!).
I suspect this deck might be the one published by George Redway,
which was mentioned in the 1892 version of this book:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob11.htm#fn_35

Now I have an additional question:
What was the first deck that was published in Britain???


Thanks,
Kenji
 

kenji

Sorry, NOT "WANDS" BUT "SCEPTRES"!! :(
 

jmd

If no-one is forthcoming with a detailed answer, I'll forward the question to a couple of other people who may also have some information.

With regards to the term 'Pentacles' for the suit of Coins, it should be worth remembering that this was also more broadly and generally used in the works of Eliphas Levi, and hence in the mid-late 19th century (there is another thread somewhere here in which this is discussed).

I wonder, however
  • a - whether the deck was published in the UK (just having titles in English doesn't necessarily indicate this);

    b - whether the deck has the titles in English, or whether this was altered for the translation within the images printed in the book (and only within the book - ie, no such independent deck exists); and

    c - whether English titled Marseille decks were available with English titles prior to the 20th century.
Of course, these are mere questions of interest.

The works of Papus, of Christian, of D'Olivet and of Levi are extremely important in the development of the understanding of Tarot in terms of its esoteric layers.
 

kenji

Thanks jmd :)
Yes, they are all possible.


McGregor Mathers used the term "PENTACLES" for coins in the booklet published in 1888.
According to "A History of the Occult Tarot 1870-1970", it's the first use of the term
in a book intended for the general public. (p58)
Mathers also used the term "SCEPTRES" for wands in this booklet, and it was published
by GEORGE REDWAY...

Well, did Redway really publish a tarot deck on their own?
Or did they just commission a card maker to make one for them?
I'm very curious about this matter.
 

jmd

I have a copy of the booklet by Mathers, and though he does indeed use the term, given that it was out of earlier contact between Wescott (another SRIA & GD member, along with Mathers) and Levi that the early Hebrew and elemental associations were made, and also given that Levi used the term 'pantacle' (with an 'a'), I suspect that the term is better traced to this source... especially if one considers the other comments Levi makes in his works, especially his Transcendantal Magic.

The earlier post which I referred to above actually did not give as many details as I thought... but for those interested, it is in the thread When Did Discs/Coins become Pentacles?.
 

roppo

hello to all and jmd and kenji,

I am under the impression that George Redway first imported doublehead decks(such as Maud Gonne used) and made Mathers write the booklet for their sale: later Redway seemd to import normal decks (perhaps TdM).

Dear kenji, have you researched the book "A Handbook of Cartomancy"(Redway,1889) by Grand Orient(i.e. Waite) ? Though many dismiss it as a potboiler, I believe this book was a kind of successor to the Mathers booklet and will give you some lights on your questions.
 

kenji

roppo said:
hello to all and jmd and kenji,

I am under the impression that George Redway first imported doublehead decks(such as Maud Gonne used) and made Mathers write the booklet for their sale: later Redway seemd to import normal decks (perhaps TdM).

Dear kenji, have you researched the book "A Handbook of Cartomancy"(Redway,1889) by Grand Orient(i.e. Waite) ? Though many dismiss it as a potboiler, I believe this book was a kind of successor to the Mathers booklet and will give you some lights on your questions.

AHHHHHHH!!!
SHI-FU ("Master", a la KILL BILL),
how could I imagine meeting you here??? :)

No, I haven't researched that book, but I will.
Thanks again for your advice! ;)
 

Cerulean

Note-free translation of text, card images

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/xr/index.htm

for Tarot of the Bohemians, etc.

The page with the layout you noted can be enlarged if you go to this page:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob07.htm

Unfortunately the black and white scans of the cards for the first link seem to be only in the majors. I checked my old copy of Tarot of the Bohemians to also see if I could find anything about the particular Marseilles or other decks used in the bookk...I was able to identify the fashioned Oswald Wirth majors, the ones you can get in a cheap copy of the Elizabeth Haich books.

I was curious to see if the minors of the Marseilles deck was the same as the reprinted U.S. Games Tarot of Marseilles or Oswald Wirth minors that you can also see at www.tarot.com....still checking. But I saw they weren't the Oswald Wirth minors...

Maybe it might be worth another look.

Mari