The Hierophant... represents law? Really?

Farzon

Oh sorry, ravenest. I was referring to the first post by TSZarathustra.

ravenest

Okay, my mistake too ... If someone posts under me without another quote I assume it addressing the post above - sorry.

ravenest

pandap said:
On what little I've learnt, I think the Hierophant, or the Pope, symbolises instruction. The 2 figures below the Hierophant are I think, supposed to represent the querent, who are seeking instruction from him. The Hierophant is casting his influence on the querent, and the attitude of the querent will determine if he/she learns from his instruction. I don't know where the legal aspect comes in at all.

I think we are seeing a progression in the understanding of the cards energy and how it relates to evolving society;

As Tarotbear says; its bout conformity ... that would have been required in the past, very much so, with 'The Pope'.

For a 'good Christian (in the past as well) , yes, one would go to the Pope or clergy for 'instruction' in the correct way to believe (doctrine) and they would be the 'officers and Priests in liturgical ceremony.

But for people who dont prescribe to that nowadays, what is its significance?For me it is what I outlined about method and instruction. So the Hierophant, in a reading, can be a person, process or system that teaches us things about ourselves OBJECTIVELY as opposed to things we make up and try for ourselves ... which may be valid ... but we need the balance of BOTH subjective and objective (another version of the two pillars)

ravenest

closrapexa said:
As was pointed out, although the idea wasn't developed, the Hierophant is attributed to Taurus, and that says a lot about who and what he is. Taurus represents hard work and tenacity, the bending strain to pull the plough. Connected to the Hierophant this could be connected to ritual and dogma, but it goes further than that. He is the practical application and study of lessons learned, whether for initiation (the "mysteries") or anything else. It would be wonderfully easy if there was only the HP to teach us things ("using your intuition") but it isn't the case. What's more, it shouldn't be, as there is an element of discipline in every endeavor.

A good point; I relate it to Yoga; the student (me) wants the body to be at ease ... so I lay in bed ... but really that doesnt do much good in regard to the long term process. The Hierophant (as an inner disciplined aspect of myself, or an outward teacher) urges lazy ravenest to drag himself out of bed at dawn and do some stretching and yoga. Lazy ravenest complains to his disciplined self ... but does it. Then I feel better all day.

Eventually, one begins to look forward to it and the teacher and the student move into balance ... one begins to look forward to and enjoy the practice more, and reap greater rewards.

closrapexa said:
If we're looking at him through the Tree of Life, it really depends on where one is headed. If you're beginning at the top and creating something, the Hierophant represents the order and discipline needed to do so. Descending from the primal energy down to the demiurge, he is the message behind the words, behind the laws.

If you're on your way up the Tree in a process of initiation, then he represents the outer shell of the true secrets of the universe. The shell must be discarded in order to arrive at the essence.

Another way of looking at him, and the respective pillars, is to consider the relationship of all three paths that cross the Abyss. Astrologically, all three pillars are connected through rulerships and exaltations, and they are the finally steps before achieving unity. If we assume the High Priestess is, according to tradition, seated in the Temple of Solomon, and "knowing" he is the final step before knowing God, and according to (certain) tradition God is the Torah, then we can assume the other two paths also fulfill a role, as is usual in the Tree. The Chariot is the shell of the Word, the outer, exoteric aspect of it. This is the actual words. The Hierophant represents the spirit of the word, the inner meanings of rituals and dogma (dogma in its good sense).

The High Priestess, on the other hand, is the inner, secret Word, the assimilation of the true spiritual meanings behind it.

Nice !

pandap

ravenest said:
I think we are seeing a progression in the understanding of the cards energy and how it relates to evolving society;

As Tarotbear says; its bout conformity ... that would have been required in the past, very much so, with 'The Pope'.

For a 'good Christian (in the past as well) , yes, one would go to the Pope or clergy for 'instruction' in the correct way to believe (doctrine) and they would be the 'officers and Priests in liturgical ceremony.

But for people who dont prescribe to that nowadays, what is its significance?For me it is what I outlined about method and instruction. So the Hierophant, in a reading, can be a person, process or system that teaches us things about ourselves OBJECTIVELY as opposed to things we make up and try for ourselves ... which may be valid ... but we need the balance of BOTH subjective and objective (another version of the two pillars)

Your knowledge is amazing! Thanks for the insight.

Zephyros

ravenest said:
Nice !

Thanks, but no, it really isn't. On rereading it, I noticed that I mistakenly pulled a Waite, and reversed the roles of the Chariot and Hierophant. The other thread I linked to has me talking about the original idea, but correctly.

ravenest

Oh ... so you weren't fibbing to cover 'secret knowledge' then ?

Now you're gonna get it !

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwzj1cXfvD1qf4hg2o1_500.jpg

Thirteen

ravenest said:
The hierophant is the guy that is going to tell you you need to build up a firm base and learn certain things, get some groundwork and training in , do things the 'right way'

Oh, wow, that is a really EXCELLENT way to look at him.

Thank you, ravenest!

This applies to so many areas. So many art students, for example, don't seem to realize that the impressionists, Picasso, Jackson Pollack and the rest all went to art school and knew how to draw photo-real, naturalistic images before they went off and did their own thing. They learned the rules of perspective and color, light and shadow, which helped them enormously when they decided to break all those rules and put their own vision on the canvass.

All such artists may start, as with the High Priestess' lesson, by following their own inspiration and unconscious need to create art. But learning the rules doesn't erase such (unless you take the Hierophant's lesson wrongly and follow the rules slavishly rather than letting them help to give you direction and insight). In the best instances, learning the rules allows you know how and in what way to break them to the best effect.

More. Knowing them can point a student in a direction that they want to examine further. That, after all, is the Hermit's lesson

To take what one knows (the rules) and question them, delve deep into them, examine them with a magnifying glass and with one's own intellect. Discover not just more, but also what might be un-realized truths and give future students the benefit of such revelations.

Thirteen

closrapexa said:
The Chariot is the shell of the Word, the outer, exoteric aspect of it. This is the actual words. The Hierophant represents the spirit of the word, the inner meanings of rituals and dogma (dogma in its good sense).

The High Priestess, on the other hand, is the inner, secret Word, the assimilation of the true spiritual meanings behind it.

I second Ravenest's "NICE!" on this.

So, the High Priestess is no words or, as the Lutheran view would have it "Read it yourself and intuit for yourself what it means..." as compared to "Hearing" what it means explained by the Hierophant (the priest teaching you the lesson of what's said in the book, which you listen to and absorb) or just reciting the words as with the Chariot (example: reciting prayers or chants in latin, which give you a feeling of power and spiritual connection even if you don't know what they mean).

I'm seeing the last as the Priest leading the congregation (horses) with prayers or chants; they don't have to understand what they mean; the priest does, and he knows it will get the chariot where it wants to go.

Is that about right or have I misunderstood what you're trying to get across here?

Zephyros

Not quite, but that's my fault, I explained it really badly:

closrapexa said:
Hers is the path from Keter to Tiphareth. Going by the path of initiation, that is, up, she would be what was met when crossing the Abyss. She, as a female, is a vessel (not God, but a vessel he builds for himself, similar to Binah).

The Holy of Holies contained the Ark of the Covenant which, by tradition held the Torah (again, by tradition, the entirety of the Torah was given at Sinai). While the Ark was holy unto itself, it was as nothing compared to the actual Word of God contained therein.

Looking at the adjacent paths we have the path of Vau, the Hierophant and Chet, the Chariot. Vau is the hook that connects the Supernal Triangle with the rest of the Tree, and represents, in a way, the words of the Torah, their meaning and significance, a "male" influence on the Pillar of Mercy, in this case Jachin. Going down from Chochma to Chesed, the Hierophant contains the "rules" that eventually manifest as the "fourness" of Chesed (the four elements). The Chariot, on the other hand, contains the "holiness" contained in, as I said, the Word of God, "fencing in" the essence of the deity. In a way, the Chariot is the Ark (the vessel that gives form and restriction) while the Hierophant is the Torah itself.

The Priestess is an amalgam of the two, as being on the Middle Pillar. She weds the vessel with the Word, and sits, in my opinion, inside the Temple but looking out as the Ark. To open the Ark is to achieve final initiation, to be united with God. In a divinatory sense, she is traditionally intuition, the unseen knowledge and wisdom.

The Priestess is the appreciation and inner significance of all external rituals and rules, their final assimilation. However, the two pillars by her sides represent that initiation split in two. The Hierophant is the Logos, the Word of God, but the actual words you read when opening the scroll. He is the physical rituals, fasts, penances and liturgies one carries out in service of deity (or Will, or anything else, for that matter). As Taurus, he breaks his back under the plough, because that is how things are done. Even Jesus, who should have been in a position to know better, still had to go into the desert to fast, because there was nothing that was more important.

The Chariot, on the other hand, is the vessel, the Holy Grail. It holds within it the essence of the deity, inside a pretty shell. This is the holiness of the Logos, the inner meaning of the rituals and words.

Combine the two, and you have, as I said, the Ark of the Covenant. There was only one person allowed to open it, the High Priest, since opening it was considered to highest form of initiation, to gaze unfiltered at the actual face of God held therein. The fact that the Priestess is depicted as a woman between two men is not accidental, because opening the Ark isn't as simple as just lifting the lid (as Raiders of the Lost Ark shows so well). You have to know the Priestess, in a ritual in which all separations are broken down, and there is complete unity.

The Hierophant... represents law? Really?

Farzon

ravenest

ravenest

ravenest

pandap

Zephyros

ravenest

Thirteen

Thirteen

Zephyros