Kipper "Fin de Siécle"

reall

yep, that's original kipper! art deco is modern version of gypsy cards that have many similarities with kipper!:)) so to speak they have same common ancestor!^^ ;))

btw kipper have court card so tower is not needed!^^ XP ;)))
 

cirom

wolfy

I’m not really sure where you’re going with this, and more important why. I’m not even sure if you are bothering to read my posts. You seem to be reiterating the same comments, so i will do the same. The title on the original deck is (in German of course) PRISON, not Hilton hotel, Trump Tower, or Mayo Clinic. The imagery does indeed show a building, but also what appears to me to be a guard, maybe you interpret it as a hotel doorman??? So i feel quite comfortable assuming that Prison was the initial creators main intent. Had it been the list of building you seem to place so much emphasis on, why did they not title the card ‘large building” or some other generic architectural term?

These other association may well be relevant, but not unanimously agreed on and almost certainly added to over the years. Do you have an actual reference that Ms Kipper (if she even existed) intended that the prison building was also meant to represent all these other buildings. Even if that were the case and you are correct in pointing out the inaccuracy of my depiction relative to the traditional deck, what part of my initial acknowledgment that this was an “adaption” remains unclear. Furthermore you once again conclude that “it leaves no card in such a deck that represents big buildings” So once again I have to ask you, how do you know that, can you read my mind, do you already know what the finished deck will consist of, even the cards that I myself have not finished yet.

To be honest this is why I didn’t post images here on AT, just the link to the promo video. It was reall, who with the best of intentions copied and pasted them from my site. I didn’t, because it was too early to have them dissected in this manner. All new decks go through that process for sure, but to comment on what is lacking in a deck that you haven’t even seen yet is really quite audacious. and I can’t really see what the purpose is other than providing a platform to demonstrate your knowledge and opinion of Kipper. Maybe its just intended as a heads up to others of the inaccuracy relative to the original Kipper. But then that inconsistency is something I made clear from the onset.

I would also like to clarify that this project was proposed to me by the publisher of the original deck. Something I was not initially enthusiastic about because of just these kind of issues. Maybe I’m just getting old and tired of these kind of discussions. Nevertheless I pointed out to the publisher that were I to do it, it would be my version of Kipper and would almost certainly include deviations…. He was ok with that condition.

Anyway. here we are, I started this thread with just the link to the promo video. I admit it was for PR purposes but it wasn’t intended as a hard sell more of a curiosity. But within 48 hours its turned sour and conflictive. So a request to the MODS, can this thread be deleted, I would prefer that…but I don’t know how to do it..
 

reall

oh! c'mon! as a hobby artist with DA acc and selfpublished deck and cartomancer/astrologist with experience for reading for clients I know there is always someone who don't like your art/reading!:)) in my country there is saying; if you don't know how to do anything teach people! and if you don't know how to teach be critic!^^ lolz ;)) just saying anyone can be critic and have right to not like something! so what? we are all different! I just shrug my shoulders and say we/artist make art for those who like it! and if you don't like it you are free to find something better or make something on your own!^^ XP ;))

@wolfy on that card we see only hands, how do we know it's not a high tower?x,x lolz ;))
don't take me wrong as a selfpublished deck creator I can tell you it's not one card or even few that break a deal it's something else, I get that in my *process*,
and what make a good reader is not a tool you use, it's something else, you need to feel energy around people situations etc it takes time to see those things,,, and i'm sure you'll find you perfect kipper one day!^^ until then try meditating on compassion empathy and patience!^^:))) and be more creative! I advise you to start making one deck just for personal use you'll be surprised how many thing you could realize that way! even if you don't know how to paint you can play with public domain art etc and write fantastic text that will discover many things and help to connect!^^ :))

and ciro as a professional artist I'm sure you have experience with all that and I expect high level of tolerance!?^^;)) so what if someone is not happy with one card or something? if you and publisher are ok! and there is so many people who will like it! and when completed there will be review and maybe that person change it's mind maybe don't who care? at least this could be that push to get new kipper craze of new decks!^^lolz ;))

peace n light!^^;))
 

cirom

reall, this isn't about someone not liking a card or deck. That happens all the time, its part of the reality. And its not about the cliché over sensitive artist (which admittedly I am), all thats a broken record we've all heard before. Its about making a statement that a card is incorrect, based on subjective assumptions of what is correct.

If some doesn't like a card or deck thats fine.

If something suggests a card would be better if depicted differently (as you did with your suggestion of the woman baking a cake) I will engage in a constructive dialogue

If someone suggests a card is flawed and provides a compelling rational, I will seriously take that into consideration, and on many occasions in the past have modified a card based on those suggestions.

If someone suggests a deck is flawed because it doesn't include this or that, before they have even seen the deck, or as in this case before i have even finished it, then yes I get frustrated, and question the motivation.

If they repeat the same comments even after I have explained its not finished, then I give up, I mean really whats the point.

All this to and fro about buildings, and towers is just increasingly subjective and off tangent. This isn't an exact science, there are no absolutes (that I'm aware of) that serve as the written in stone correct Kipper way. Every detail of the original deck isn't significant, much of it is just decoration, a whim of the artist who drew them. Every picture hanging on the wall does not have a symbolic meaning, its just a picture on the wall. For people who are already familiar with Kipper, the cards work , but only because of that familiarity. Show the deck images to beginners and ask them what each card is supposed to mean, and the vast majority will have no clue. Because (no disrespect to whoever the deceased artist was) the illustrative technique is somewhat crude. Charming and romantic maybe, but not particularly effective in conveying the nuances of emotion or situations. So applying precise meanings to each card has and still does leave plenty of wiggle room for different opinions. Actually thats part of its strength i think. But not a basis upon which to judge variations as incorrect.....

The reason I wanted this thread removed is because its misleading. I could just ignore it and leave, which no doubt I will be advised to do, but I feel obliged to explain myself rather than have misleading posts left uncontested. I'd rather spend the time finishing off more cards, especially the ones with all those lovely buildings.....
 

MissNine

Ciro,
These are wonderful. I'm so glad that you picked up the kipper to work with.
For me, the mystisches diverged too far off the idea behind the original deck. Yours are like the puzzle pieces fitting together for a brilliant renovated picture that is still in line with the original Kipper.

When I saw these illustrations and video, I thought of the film Hugo and it's imagery. Beautiful!
Well done! Can't wait to buy a deck. :)
 

Chiska

Moderator Note

I will not remove this thread, nor will I close it. I did remove it briefly for review. I have two basic concerns with this thread:

Images: There is really no reason to post all the images from a website! I have removed images from all posts. If you have specific discussion, then a link to the image at the site would be preferable.

Criticism and Discussion: Remember, if this isn't to your tastes, then move along. If you must ask questions or make comments, do so with respect. And yet, on the other side, receive comments and criticism with respect and utilize the Ignore feature if specific people bother you. This is not targeted at any person(s), but is general good advice for the forum.

Chiska
Moderator
 

cirom

So be it, no its not to my taste, so I will move along as I expected to be told to do...if anyone is genuinely interested in this project, there are some additional updates on my web site and Facebook.

Thank you for your support and balanced response.

Wolfy, thank you for your contribution, it made a difference. As I have your address, I'll be sure to send you a reference print of that big building card.... Think of it as a parting gift....
 

MissChiff

I just got a notification in my mailbox that this is on the way...
 

Asher

My deck arrived today!

And it is just stunning! The images are beautiful and evocative, each of them telling a story about the characters or scene.

I have been studying the Kipper system using the original German cards. Ciro's cards will be very helpful in my studies. He has included three additional cards not in the original Kipper deck, and the pdf explains the rationale behind them.

The companion pdf is quite thorough and includes card meanings and spreads written by three Kipper readers. A valuable resource, since there is virtually nothing yet written in English on the Kipperkarten.

The bag has the title of the deck and images on both sides.

I haven't downloaded the special app to see the animations of the cards yet...

Ciro has again produced an amazing package! (And I opted for the special edition, which has my monogram on the back! Gorgeous!)

Congratulations to Ciro!
 

Barleywine

Hi, Ciro

As the creator of both the Gilded Reverie Lenormand and this new Kipper, your insight would be useful to me in one regard at this early stage:

I've been pursuing the notion employed by some Lenormand readers of using a second deck as an adjunct to their Lenormand cards in a spread. Many use tarot, but some have mentioned using the Kipper for this purpose, Since you're doing an adaptation rather than a slavish recreation of the original Kipper, how well do you think the new deck will blend with the Gilded Reverie, which is my primary Lenormand deck (and which has a few adaptations of its own)? The original Kipper seems to be highly compatible with the traditional Lenormand decks, but it would be nice to have harmonious modern versions from the same creator.

ETA: Hmm, I didn't notice that Ciro has excused himself from this thread. If anyone else uses his new Kipper as an adjunct in Lenormand readings, I'd be interested in hearing how it goes.