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Originally Posted by The Happy Squirrel View Post
Wanting something nicer and cheaper as paying customers on the one hand, and wanting to produce for as cheap as possible and sell as expensive as possible on the producers' side of things, is what keeps our free economy ticking, as they say. Can't remember the technical economical term for it at the moment. It has been more than a life time since my last Econ 101.
Surplus value. Knowing these sorts of things by heart is for me the only (and still dubious) upside of having been raised in a Marxist country.

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Originally Posted by The Happy Squirrel View Post
So those who simply want a good quality reasonably priced decks are indeed being left out of the the newly carved out market segment that Baba is targeting.

Fair enough for Baba Studio because independent deck producers are producing excellent quality decks for about $40-$80. They want to carve their own niche. Good on them.

But that does not negate the fact that in order to do so they have to abandon, and is abandoning, their (previously targeted) market segment. As such, there is actual cause for some to feel left out. Because they actually, literally, have been.
Can anyone tell me what's the icon for 'standing ovation' here? Can't find it anywhere....
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Originally Posted by rylla View Post
BTW, how many decks of Alice large size deck were issued?
500 only, which is what they usually print for limited editions, IIRC.

And no, rylla, I don't think the scarf has anything to do with the price of the new large Prague edition. if factored in, it would make it considerably higher.
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Leffy, you know I LOVE you, but... yes you ARE missing the point. This is a rather special case, not about what MRP may and may not produce. YES of course MRP (or anyone else) can publish what they like at whatever price they like. That isn't QUITE what people are upset about.

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Originally Posted by Le Fanu View Post
I'm more than happy to have high quality, top notch tarot decks. The production levels will of course be 5 star. These things cost money, so of course it is going to be more expensive than a Llewellyn deck. I'm fine with that. Easy mathematics; I didn't buy the last four Llewellyn decks and - hey poncho - I have enough money left for a deck I love.
Some people who would only buy ONE Llewellyn deck in a year don't have that option. They could have sprung maybe $15 more than usual for a special deck they wanted.
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Much of this sounds like tantrums. Of course there are things we can't afford in life and we're free to comment all we like. Can't afford a Chanel dress? Get the H&M cheaper version. But it's not the same. Dead right, it's not the same. But that's what you do in life.
Sure. But no-one has brought out an H&M cheaper Tarot of Prague, so that choice isn't available to them. (I expect some pirate will do soon, but that's another issue.) A Greenwitch isn't going to cut it, here.
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Can I go off topic and wonder why Rolex and Cartier don't do a cheaper range for people like me? Like JylliM, I also just want MRP to do what they do. And I'm fine with a scarf - it'll make a great spreadcoth.
I am happy for them to do what they do, too. BUT this case is different.
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Originally Posted by FLizarraga View Post
You are missing the point. But I wonder if you are doing it on purpose, since you seem to have been a longtime Baba customer and know their trajectory.
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Originally Posted by Le Fanu View Post
So - in a nutshell - what is it?
OK - the nub of this, JUST for you, Leffy.
Alice was a new deck. No-one had it. Those who couldn't afford it - well, that was it. I didn't see anyone getting upset in this way when it came out.
The Prague used once to be available at a "normal" price. My first edition cost me $40; the second, $20. Both new. People who have since met it and would love to buy a copy were thrilled to hear there was to be a reprint - until they found it was to be out of their price range.
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Originally Posted by Le Fanu View Post
No mention of money. It's money that seems to be bothering people. You can call it "left out" or not being part of a marketing focus - but for all the euphemisms - people want something nice, cheaper. Understandable, but I still think it amounts to a bit of a tantrum.
See above.

I am not having a tantrum, sweety - I HAVE both editions. But I am terribly sorry for those people who thought, desperately hoped, that it would be reprinted in the same form as it had been the first time - sure, with a deluxe version alongside, but even so. It's the fact that it's a deck that was affordable the first time around, and whose reprint leaves it way out of many people's reach, that is hurting people.

I too am a long time baba customer, and I MIGHT even buy this. But I can feel sorry for those who hoped that at last.... and I do feel sorry for them.
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And I love you VERY dearly gregory and we do often disagree lovingly but - I stick to what I say - it is about money. As is the world, in fact. Somebody mentioned the fact that those who were with baba in the "humble" beginnings are feeling left out. I wonder how many of these people really were there in 2004 (when I guess they would have bought it anyway and therefore feel less of the need to buy this version). Some of these may indeed be latecomers who missed the boat. It happens. But think about all those people whose friends bought a painting by an unknown artist for a pittance when he/she was still at art school and then saw it increase in value. I bet they were stamping their foot too.

The stuff about getting a scarf, I can understand. But gotta dash. No time for more.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregory View Post
Leffy, you know I LOVE you, but... yes you ARE missing the point. This is a rather special case, not about what MRP may and may not produce. YES of course MRP (or anyone else) can publish what they like at whatever price they like. That isn't QUITE what people are upset about.


Some people who would only buy ONE Llewellyn deck in a year don't have that option. They could have sprung maybe $15 more than usual for a special deck they wanted.

Sure. But no-one has brought out an H&M cheaper Tarot of Prague, so that choice isn't available to them. (I expect some pirate will do soon, but that's another issue.) A Greenwitch isn't going to cut it, here.

I am happy for them to do what they do, too. BUT this case is different.


OK - the nub of this, JUST for you, Leffy.
Alice was a new deck. No-one had it. Those who couldn't afford it - well, that was it. I didn't see anyone getting upset in this way when it came out.
The Prague used once to be available at a "normal" price. My first edition cost me $40; the second, $20. Both new. People who have since met it and would love to buy a copy were thrilled to hear there was to be a reprint - until they found it was to be out of their price range.

See above.

I am not having a tantrum, sweety - I HAVE both editions. But I am terribly sorry for those people who thought, desperately hoped, that it would be reprinted in the same form as it had been the first time - sure, with a deluxe version alongside, but even so. It's the fact that it's a deck that was affordable the first time around, and whose reprint leaves it way out of many people's reach, that is hurting people.

I too am a long time baba customer, and I MIGHT even buy this. But I can feel sorry for those who hoped that at last.... and I do feel sorry for them.
I TOTALLY agree with all of the above. What you described in your post IS the point.
"Alice was a new deck. No-one had it. Those who couldn't afford it - well, that was it. I didn't see anyone getting upset in this way when it came out." just proves it.
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Originally Posted by FLizarraga View Post

And no, rylla, I don't think the scarf has anything to do with the price of the new large Prague edition. if factored in, it would make it considerably higher.
I wish I could believe that...

ETA just out of goodness of their heart...with no interest whatsoever...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Fanu View Post
Some of these may indeed be latecomers who missed the boat. It happens. But think about all those people whose friends bought a painting by an unknown artist for a pittance when he/she was still at art school and then saw it increase in value. I bet they were stamping their foot too.
Many DID miss the boat. That's the point. It used to be a "normal" priced deck. Those boat-missing people were hoping they would be able to buy one at last. Yes the old normal ones shot up in value. So they couldn't even buy used.

I don't think investing in art is in the same class. The people who want to buy decks as an investment will be happy to buy the foiled LEs. The people who simply want to read/study tarot are not looking to make money. They would just have loved to have the relatively ordinary one that came out as the second edition. I'm not gloating over the decks that I have that have appreciated in value - it never occurred to me when I bought them that they would (this place didn't even exist when I started, and the used tarot store I used in the early 80s sold all used decks cheap because who wants USED anything ? ). I will not be selling them because I use them for TAROT. That kind of person is the kind of person who is sad, here.

This "issue", this discussion, has arisen only because this deck USED to be reasonably priced and people who had longed for it hoped it still would be when they heard that MRP were reprinting. No-one was this way about Alice, as it never had been priced at that level. THAT is the difference.
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Gregory, I get your point. But how should Baba feel, if their decks on ebay go for hundrets and they (as the artists) sell for 20? Nobody sells under their own value, otherwise they would be crazy.

I saw one of their old special golden decks sold for app. 400, so they themselves sold that deck in this range. Would one expect to do it for less by them, one could say they had a really problem with self-worth. It's an absolutely logical decision they made.

Their LE Alice, which they sold for 120 at the first point, sold on ebay for 400 - the limit isn't reached obviously.
Their Prague 2nd ed. which they offered some time ago I think for 115 (they found 15 decks in their storage) were away the same day. How could one expect to sell it for the old prices, for 20?
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Originally Posted by Gulliver View Post
Gregory, I get your point. But how should Baba feel, if their decks on ebay go for hundrets and they (as the artists) sell for 20? Nobody sells under their own value, otherwise they would be crazy.
They go for hundreds because they were issued in limited editions, are OOP and are valued. If they would've been available on-going for $20 the price on eBay would have never go up that much. In fact who would buy a copy for $400 if it's available for $20?

But it is definitely their merit that their decks sells for $400, even if the whole thing is a little bit artificially created. I don't believe decks in print (even if it would be from MRP) would sell for that amount ob eBay.
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Originally Posted by Gulliver View Post
Gregory, I get your point. But how should Baba feel, if their decks on ebay go for hundrets and they (as the artists) sell for 20? Nobody sells under their own value, otherwise they would be crazy.
They go for hundreds because they were issued in limited editions, are OOP and are valued. If they would've been available on-going for $20 the price on eBay would have never go up that much. In fact who would buy a copy for $400 if it's available for $20?

But it is definitely their merit that their decks sells for $400, even if the whole thing is a little bit artificially created. I don't believe decks in print (even if it would be from MRP) would sell for that amount ob eBay.
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