Pamela Colman Smith

gregory said:

Exactly. Bodies were placed on top of others all the time. Still are.

As my father's gravedigger said "like digging in rabbit pie..."

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I'm not sure what the point of this dialogue is. Pamela Colman Smith is buried in a churchyard in Cornwall. Kaplan could not find the actual grave site because she died without money for a proper burial. She was therefore buried as a pauper. In those times paupers were buried one on top of another with no gravestone. Kaplan visited the graveyard and could not find the place where she was buried. He was told that so much time had passed since she was buried and since she was buried in an unmarked area, that it would be impossible to find the actual site. I hope that clarifies the situation for you. For further details I suggest you contact Kaplan from whom I got this information.

gregory said:

About her grave ! It wasn't Lillie, it was Fulgour.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=28086

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No. Not me.

I'd like to speak about 'Pauper's graves'.
It's a loaded term that has no meaning defined in law.
It brings to mind ideas of Mozart being tumbled into a corpse pit in 'Amadeus', and other such horrors.

It's a commonly used phrase, particularly by tabloid newspapers because of it's shocking connotations.
A more proper term would be 'buried at the expense of the parish'. Which just means they pay because you can't.
It can mean a common grave. There have been recent horror stories about mass baby pits in London. It can also mean an individual plot.

In Bude in 1951 it is unlikely to mean a mass grave, although it may have meant a shared grave.
Bude would have been far too small to have mass graves unless they had a plague to go with them.

So, PCS could have had any kind of burial, although it would have been unmarked unless someone paid for a stone.

You would think that the plot would be known, that it would be in the church records somewhere. Well, yes, it should. But stuff gets lost and mislaid, (graves more often than people might imagine) and who knows who asked who about it. I wouldn't be sure unless I had contacted the people myself and been to see.

She could well be somewhere in the Parish Churchyard. St Michael's and All Angels. It's a nice looking church and close to where she lived.
There was a new part of the churchyard opened between 1933 and 56 (Two maps that I have access too). So she is probably in that area, if she is buried in St Michaels.

Another option might be a Roman Catholic cemetery. But her local church (almost next door to her house!) was a fairly modern building, very small, and had no graveyard.

So, if I was investigating this (and I'm not) I would be asking where Bude Catholics were buried at that time, and where parish burials took place. Were they always the parish church or were they sometimes elsewhere?

I would also be looking to see if there were any local papers from the time.
I'd be looking for local history societies that might know all this stuff.

Finally, on the subject of so called 'paupers graves' I myself expect to be dealt with 'by the parish'.
Not buried I hope. I don't want to be dug up in future by weirdo archaeologists.
I'll be cremated, thanks.
But I've lived my life as a pauper, and I'll die as one too, if my plans come to fruition.

I append a screenshot from google maps, for anyone who is interested.
The relevant places are marked.

Thanks, Lillie. I think you and I must have discussed this when you were here !

It was indeed the red-top tabloid picture that "pauper's grave" always conjures up, used in relation to her that bothered me. It wasn't like dumping bodies willy nilly. It was just not paying for your very own (for the moment) plot.

It's a loaded term with no strict definition, that can be used for a multitude of things.

Google it and you get stories of foxes stealing the bodies of babies out of cardboard coffins, from open mass graves in London. Last year.

Sad stuff. But London in the present day is vast.

Bude in 1951 was tiny.
In 2001 it had 9000 people. There would have been considerably less in 1951.
So it would seem very doubtful that their 'pauper's grave' would be the sort of thing the name evokes.

Lovely church, St Michael's. If she is there, it's not a bad place to be.

gregory said:

Thanks, Lillie. I think you and I must have discussed this when you were here !

It was indeed the red-top tabloid picture that "pauper's grave" always conjures up, used in relation to her that bothered me. It wasn't like dumping bodies willy nilly. It was just not paying for your very own (for the moment) plot.

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Pauper means poor. To be buried in a paupers' grave is to be buried wherever people who could not afford to buy a plot were buried. I find it doubtful she had her own plot and Kaplan says she was buried on top of other bodies. To buy an individual plot is expensive. Areas where paupers were buried were sometimes fields outside the graveyard because the church sell plots inside the graveyard. According to my research so far, there was no announcement of her burial in the papers, obituary or service.

I think you are thinking of mass graves during wars or plagues where so many people died at one time, individual burials were impossible so pits were created and the bodies were covered with lime. There is a graveyard in central London where prostitutes were buried:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_Bones which is something like that.

I don't believe anyone has mentioned a mass grave lime pit in relation to PCS

As a Catholic she was probably buried in a Catholic site. St Michaels is Church of England.

That was one of the questions I raised in my previous post.
I'll go over it again.

Her church would probably have been St Peter's, the local RC church. However, they have no graveyard that I can find.

So, where were local Catholics buried?

Also. Burials at the expense of the parish, what you are calling by their informal and colloquial name 'Pauper's graves'.

Were they of necessity in the Parish church? (in this case St Michael's, which is of course CoE, as are all parish churches) Or was the religion of the deceased taken into account when the parish arranged the burial?

Also another question would be what was her parish and how do we define it?

Where she lived has sometimes been in the local government parish of Bude Haven, and sometimes in Bude Stratton. They move the borders.
I believe that where she lived has always been in the ecclesiastical Parish of Bude Haven. However, I don't know what difference that would have made when determining the place of burial.

Cari, regarding your comments about obits etc. Which local bude newspapers did you look at? And where did you find their archives?

Lillie said:

Another option might be a Roman Catholic cemetery. But her local church (almost next door to her house!) was a fairly modern building, very small, and had no graveyard.

So, if I was investigating this (and I'm not) I would be asking where Bude Catholics were buried at that time, and where parish burials took place. Were they always the parish church or were they sometimes elsewhere?

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That's a great idea. The web can help even casual searchers like me, who like a mystery.

"Roman Catholic St. Peter's Church was built by the Augustinian Canons Regular of the Lateran (from Bodmin) in 1926. The Prior of Bodmin bought land for one hundred and twenty pounds. He then begged and borrowed the money for construction. It was a long and difficult struggle since the parish (part of Launceston till 1976) was so small."
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Cornwall/BudeHaven/

So the Church existed in some form at the time of PCS's death. But since, as you have observed, there is no graveyard, it could be that she was taken to Launceston.

Ross G Caldwell said:

That's a great idea. The web can help even casual searchers like me, who like a mystery.

"Roman Catholic St. Peter's Church was built by the Augustinian Canons Regular of the Lateran (from Bodmin) in 1926. The Prior of Bodmin bought land for one hundred and twenty pounds. He then begged and borrowed the money for construction. It was a long and difficult struggle since the parish (part of Launceston till 1976) was so small."
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Cornwall/BudeHaven/

So the Church existed in some form at the time of PCS's death. But since, as you have observed, there is no graveyard, it could be that she was taken to Launceston.

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OR - if the parish didn't choose to pay for the transport, she could have been put in the LOCAL one at St Michael's - as they were paying, they may have got to choose.

gregory said:

OR - if the parish didn't choose to pay for the transport, she could have been put in the LOCAL one at St Michael's - as they were paying, they may have got to choose.

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My hunch would be that, as a devout Catholic, she would not have wanted to be buried in a Protestant cemetery. Catholics are particular about that.

If Launceston is too far, it might have been at the nearest possible Catholic cemetery, but I wouldn't bet on it having been in Protestant earth.

St. Cuthbert Mayne, in Launceston, has a large graveyard.
http://www.stcuthbertmayne.org.uk/gallery/launceston/churchyard.html

Ross G Caldwell said:

My hunch would be that, as a devout Catholic, she would not have wanted to be buried in a Protestant cemetery. Catholics are particular about that.

If Launceston is too far, it might have been at the nearest possible Catholic cemetery, but I wouldn't bet on it having been in Protestant earth.

St. Cuthbert Mayne, in Launceston, has a large graveyard.
http://www.stcuthbertmayne.org.uk/gallery/launceston/churchyard.html

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True - BUT - if the parish was paying.... Launceston would indeed have been ideal, if someone was prepared to pay to shift the body...