which imagery for majors?

Starling

Ross G Caldwell said:
Hi Starling,


Thirdly, Petrarch was a hugely popular writer both during his lifetime and after his death, especially in 15th century Italy. Fourthly, Petrarch was close to the Visconti family and had long stays at their castle in Pavia (which still survives, in quite good condition). Petrarch suggested the motto "A bon droit" to Gian Galeazzo Visconti, who would become the first Duke of Milan. This motto is used extensively on the earliest surviving trionfi cards.

[snip]

With that kind of background, any questions at all will probably be intelligent ;)

Ross

Yes, the Court of the Visconti is where Chaucer met Petrarch. There isn't any proof of the meeting, but they were both in the same place at the same time. Chaucer was serving (as Squire to the household) the English prince who was marrying the Visconti daughter). He wasn't known as a poet at that point, but he had to have been writing already. Petrarch was the famous poet living at the Court where the wedding took place. Unless Chaucer was incredibly shy he had to have taken the opportunity to at least sit at the great man's feet.

As you can see I only know this stuff tangentially. I've read a couple of biographies of Chaucer because I find the man's life fascinating. Also incredibly upward mobile at a time when we all believe that being upward mobile was impossible. But obviously not.

Thank you so much for all of the info you provided. It will all go on my to do list for reading.

And I'll probably have loads of additional questions. We will see how intelligent they turn out to be when I ask them. <grin>
 

mjhurst

Hi, Ross,

Ross G Caldwell said:
But the problems with Petrarch's influence you have noted - the tarot trumps *aren't* Petrarch's triumphs. But there is a nagging sense that there must be some kind of relationship.

There is nothing exactly like the tarot trump series anywhere else. Petrarch's subjects and ordering might be the closest. Another popular genre, the Dance of Death (or Danse Macabre or Trionfo della Morte), seems to be closely related as well, and this position is most fully argued by Michael Hurst.

Neither Petrarch's Triumphs nor any other Triumph of Death or Dance of Death shows the same design. However, that is not surprising. The trump cycle was clearly not a simple representation of some other work of art but instead a novel one. In the sense of being unique, it is far from unique -- that just means that it is an original work.

It is, however, closely related to the many examples of Death's triumph in this world and the triumph over Death in the next. Huck has posted (above) a great Triumph of Death image from one of the several Petrarchian traditions. In that image we see crowns of emperor and pope, and assorted lesser figures, as we see in the large majority of Danse Macabre and Triumph of Death works. We see an allegory of Death personified, again characteristic of these works, and in fact central to them. And we see in the background indications of the afterlife, in this case a fiery Hellmouth across the Styx on the left and the souls of the saved on their way to Heaven, on the right. Above it all appears to be a temple with a fountain, flowing the Water of Life.

The Tarot trump cycle shows a similar design. That is, not a copy of this design or any other known work, but another example from the same family of works. The lowest trumps show representatives of mankind, ending in the Emperor and Pope. This is a very common convention for representing Everyman or Mankind in this family of works. The highest trumps, from the Devil on up, show eschatological subjects from Revelation. Although the general subject matter in both sections is easily recognizable, the specifics chosen are unique.

The middle of the trump cycle is perhaps the most interesting. Instead of a simple triumph of Death, an entire narrative arc of the circumstances of life, ending in death, is used. Successes in Love and war (the Triumphal Chariot) come first, followed by reversals of Time (or the renunciation of the Hermit) and Fortune, then betrayal (the Traitor or Hanged Man) and Death. This narrative arc defined the Triumph of Fortune, as most influentially exemplified in Boccaccio's Latin De Casibus. The three Moral Virtues, i.e., those virtues which address the three appetites, tended to be placed either 1) with the successes, illustrating that not only worldly success but even virtue was incapable of stopping the turn of Fortune's wheel, or 2) spaced as in TdM, with each virtue triumphing over an (arguably) appropriate worldly circumstance. In the latter case, the work of Petrarch which comes to mind is his most respected (in the 15th century), the Latin De Remediis. The Virtues in the second case serve as "remedies" for the good and bad circumstances of life.
 

Starling

Ok, so basically the "story line" of the Majors is something new in its time, but the individual cards are not new ideas. It is how they were combined that was new. Is that how you'all see it.

How far back do the concepts on individual cards go back? I'd expect some of them like the Death Card go back to the Dance of Death motifs from the Black Death period. And I know that there was this idea of a female Pope wandering around, but I don't know how far back that one goes.

Any comments?
 

mjhurst

Hi, Starling,

Starling said:
Ok, so basically the "story line" of the Majors is something new in its time, but the individual cards are not new ideas. It is how they were combined that was new. Is that how you'all see it.

How far back do the concepts on individual cards go back? I'd expect some of them like the Death Card go back to the Dance of Death motifs from the Black Death period. And I know that there was this idea of a female Pope wandering around, but I don't know how far back that one goes.

As far as I can tell from books and online discussions, there is no consensus. My own view is that they are definitely not new ideas. They are old ideas that have been presented in many different ways. The Tarot trump cycle was just one example of them. But keep in mind that what I'm presenting is just one middle-aged bald guy's reconstruction. A few other folks like it, or parts of it, but AFAIK no one buys into it in detail.

In my view, the overall design of the trump cycle is an example of the hugely well-known genre of moral allegory, a Triumph of Death. Related genre from the period include Vado Mori, the Three Living and Three Dead, and the various Dance of Death works. This Gothic or Macabre sensibility became popular around the mid-14th century, the time of the Black Death, and lasted several centuries. The great Triumph of Death fresco at Pisa was done at about that time, and Petrarch's Trionfi, originally just a lament on unrequited love with Chastity triumphant over Love, was expanded after Laura's death in the plague. He added triumphs of Death and Fame, to recognize her passing and celebrate her for all time. Then, toward the end of his life, he added triumphs of Time conquering Fame and Eternity over Time, making his poem a classic example of the Triumph of Death, acknowledging the Christian contemptu mundi or vanitas sensibility and the ultimate triumph over death.

The basic idea is simply that Everyman is subject to Death, and that Death is overcome at the End Times, in one fashion or another. Among more sophisticated audiences, this was never as popular as among the masses, and Renaissance humanists tended to prefer classical subjects, Neoplatonic themes, chivalric romance of love and war, or a Triumph of Fame over such pedestrian themes of futility and death.

Likewise, the elaboration of the central allegory from merely Death to a De Casibus narrative arc is an ancient idea, nothing new. It comes from the Stoic notion of Fortune and her sovereignty in this world. It connects with themes of inevitable ruin, ubi sunt, contemptu mundi, Seneca, and especially Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy. It was the basis of both moralized history, as briefly recounted in Romance of the Rose and expanded massively in Boccaccio's De Casibus, and of medieval tragedy. It is the narrative shown by the figures on the Wheel of Fortune itself.

As for the figures on the cards, they are for the most part commonplace subjects of the period, many of them being much older and some of them being current even today. Cupid, the Grim Reaper, Justice (an icon of the legal profession), and so on, are instantly recognizable.) Some of the trump subjects seem quite peculiar individually, including the Popess and Traitor, while others appear just as peculiar in terms of their role in a cyclic hierarchy. Many people have attempted to explicate the meaning of the trumps over the last couple centuries, with no clear solution to the puzzle, so IMO we can be certain that there is no simple answer. My own answer is pretty complex, some parts are fairly subtle, and there is a more-or-less different version for every difference of iconography or order.

The basic trade-off is between explanatory power and parsimony. The more details you attempt to explain, the more complex and subtle the explanation becomes. And not only is there no guarantee that every change is meaningful, there is in fact a virtual certainty that many, perhaps most, of the later changes are not particularly meaningful! Thus, the four Moors, Juno and Jupiter, Bacchus and the Spanish Captain, and so on, appear to have no connection whatsoever with the original design. People wanted to get rid of the Pope and Popess, and used various alternatives. Substitutions such as the Ship and Tower in Sicilian decks appear to have only tangential connection with the original Devil and Fire/Tower cards. And so on.

That's how I see it. I've tried to craft a coherent interpretation, starting with an overall view of the significance of the three sections of the series: Pope and lower-ranked, middle trumps, Devil and higher-ranked. I call this a Triumph of Death, and compare it with other such works, including Petrarch's Trionfi. Second comes an analysis of each section within the overriding Triumph of Death design. This is where things get interesting, as each of the three sections is a fascinating puzzle in its own right. The middle section I call a Triumph of Fortune, and I relate it to two of the most respected works of the 14th century, Boccaccio's De Casibus and Petrarch's De Remediis. Only then, as a tertiary analysis, do I attempt to specify the significance of each card in any detail.

But again, it can't be said too many times, everyone finds their own preferred reading.

Best regards,
Michael
 

Starling

I've enjoyed our conversation. Thank you again.
 

le pendu

I've enjoyed this very much too. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts on a most interesting question!
 

blue_fusion

it was really informative reading your posts here (though, honestly i'm still struggling with the back-readings) :D i'm not sure they've answered all of my questions as i personally can't seem to word them specifically, but thanks for the replies.
 

Teheuti

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far and just want to add that Petrarch was very interested in the virtues - which he began to explore in his unfinished work Rerum memorandarum libri [Books of Things to be Remembered]. The final third to half of the Trumps correspond very closely to images depicted from the biblical Book of Revelations (a book on this was written by Timothy Betts and followed up by Bob O'Neill who related it to the fact that so many Tarot-like images appear in the confraternity chapels of southern France and northern Italy).

The only place in which both a Dance of Death and Triumph of Death pictures appears together is at Clusone in Northern Italy - as a fresco on the outside of a confraternity chapel. The fresco contains several images similar to those in the Tarot.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=214098453&size=l

Clusone is a hill-town built on four levels corresponding to the four levels of society who lived on each level. The outside of the buildings in the town were completely illustrated - mostly during the 15th century. It was ruled over variously by the Viscontis, then the Lords of Bergamo, the Venetians and then the Austrians. I visited Clusone with Tarot artist and author, Brian Williams, and felt it was the single most significant place where you could experience how common and pervasive the Tarot themes were during that period.

Mary
 

le pendu

Wow!!

Amazing photo! Thanks Mary for sharing it!!!