Minderwiz
Tomorrow - Ana's ship, which is patiently waiting in the harbour to set sail.
Hellenistic Astrology
Ronia
OK, I got it now.
Yes, I find it interesting too. Which would prevail according to them – the sign trine or the degree applying square but in another sign…
Agree. Just ancients sometimes sound a bit ultimative, that’s why I’m thinking it over.
Interesting that not only your Saturn is in Leo too but it also has a difficult relationship with your Moon… I’m starting to think if it’s possible that this is the key to the door.
I’m glad my digging is helpful and thanks for all the explanations!
Well… Is there a person out there who doesn’t need fortune to do well in life? I don’t think so. I think we all need some luck to really do well. If we want to, of course.
Yes, true.Well as a child you don't think of the future consequences of your actions as a regular part of your decisions' The hospital treatment is in a sense beside the point as the accident has already happened, fortune has struck
Oddly enough, I started considering myself a lucky person only after I grew up and started planning more. LOL I have another guess here and it’s related to Mercury conjunct the Lot. It has nothing to do with Hellenistic astrology but it has to do with the mind – when I started thinking of myself as a lucky person, things started to work out although sometimes take quite a bit of time. Coincidence or not, but it’s a fact. Now, that’s more about modern psychology but exists in the chart.On your adult experience, I think we learn from our experiences, and your strategies are very much designed to minimize the need to depend on Fortune. I'm not sure Hellenistic Astrology allows for that adaption process, it seems to assume that you won't adapt your behaviour in the light of past experiences. Mind you I know some people who don't adapt.
These are also popular qualities for Scorpio Suns too. How do we know it’s Saturn playing and not the Scorpio Sun? I’m not sure.
Ah, OK, I got the Mars part now. It does look like each crew member is an officer under cover. LOLMars is a masculine planet which is why I used the masculine pronoun
Considering the fact that these were my child years, not very happy overall. There were, of course, happier times (especially the year of my first Jupiter return, this one was great!) but I didn’t have a happy childhood as per the issues with close women I wrote about. On top of that in September 1989 I lost the person who was my only parent for real and that was devastating. I fell into depression for a long time, also I found myself penniless at a very early age. But health issues were earlier, prior to 1983, when I was a baby and a very small child. When this 1983 period started I was already involved in sports. My injuries didn’t start immediately and weren’t worse than other people’s actually, they just became too many with the time (due to my own desire and ambition to push myself harder).
That’s from 1990 to 1998? The beginning was bad, I was still experiencing depression. And the consequences of the death of this person left a mark for many years to come, so it wasn’t a happy period. I was still going to school, doing sports though… Deepening problems with close women around and I started being rebellious which brought even bigger problems but made me happy actually. LOL I met my first boyfriend during this period too, I think it was 1991 or 1992. This was a very difficult but very meaningful relationship. Then in 1993 I finished school, failed to enroll in the university, started working instead and got enrolled next year, 1994. The rest is part of the employment history I sent you before. If these 8 years were better than the previous ones – yes, since the most important person fro me died in the previous period, obviously this one was better, despite all the problems. But overall my childhood and youth years were not happy times.
Looks like this one has been much happier overall. Although it had its challenges (I guess sub periods were playing there, like a very tough break up in 2003, new problems with the well known to me women in 2003-2004), it still brought many happy events and my second Jupiter return and Saturn return were in this period and it was glorious time in all departments.
I hope it’s good.
That’s interesting… So, they didn’t pay much attention to the transits? Hm…
I’ve been told Mars is the Almuten of my chart. But because I mainly look at transits, progressions and directions, I haven’t been able to put him even close to Saturn and even Jupiter in terms of effect on my life. Even now he’s been doing many aspects by transit and he’s making aspects by progressions and directions, we’ll see what he’ll produce this time.
OK, but I don’t understand how I should see them? I got a bit lost in all these captains and officers. What are Moon and Mars supposed to do? Steer the ship? I don’t think Mars is so powerful, I don’t know. As about the Moon… I do feel her, of course, I’ve always thought she’s one of the strongest planets in my chart. I actually think she’s only competing with the Sun (I put aside Saturn for the moment as he’s strongly felt by transits but he’s never been in conflict with my Sun, with my core desires, despite their square). I know the Sun is not strong based on these analyses but that’s how I’ve felt it. If Mars injects power in the Sun through the trine… may be. May be Mars is not playing with the Moon so much as with the Sun while the Sun and the Moon share the same values but have a bit of an uneasy relationship… A bit like a square in synastry where there is attraction but there is also friction. Can’t live with or without you, kind of…
I’m too emotional and too much depending on intuition and feelings for this pair to be my captains, IMHO. There must be a strong female planet somewhere in the steering team.
WandsyQueen92
Are you still Taking Guinea Pigs? If so, i would like to be one
Is there any rules or info i should Provide you with besides the basics???
Is there any rules or info i should Provide you with besides the basics???
Minderwiz
Are you still Taking Guinea Pigs? If so, i would like to be one
Is there any rules or info i should Provide you with besides the basics???
Yes, by all means. For the moment all I need is your basic details of time date and place. Later on I might need a little more as we go through Stages 3 & 4, that will which deal with the ares of life and the stages of life, past and future.
I may take some time getting through all stages, as there will be periods in which I break off for some reflection and or investigation.
Minderwiz
True but I think the idea is that the person with a well run ship, so to speak, will be best able to take advantage of the fortune that comes their way. Whereas if the ship is badly managed they will tend to miss out.
Fortune here is not strictly luck in the modern sense. We take luck as being the product of random chance, which may work out to our advantage or our disadvantage. I thinkt there's more to it for the Greeks and Romans. Fortune is not random, it is the way in which the gods influence our lives and has a purpose. You will find the same idea in some Christian teachings - it's God's will - but the Hellenistic view also allows us to influence the gods by behaving in the right way (again Christians might see prayer as such a move. God(s) may or may not respond in the way we want though.
Ronia said:
I think there's a couple of interesting observations here. From my point of view I'd make a distinction between 'techniques' and 'context'. I don't think it's possible to practice a pure form of Hellenisitc Astrology in the 21st century (even if we had a clear idea of what the pure form was, or even if one existed). In this thread I'm trying to understand the techniques and from their practice decide if they are or are not of use. However that priactise will eventually have to allow for the context of modern life and modern thinking.
I've found that 17th century Astrology has techniques and concepts that still apply to a modern era and can be adapted. Terms like 'melancholy', 'sanguine' , 'choleric' and 'phlegmatic' still have meaning and psychological application. These can in many ways be traced back to Ptloemy, though Ptolemy was atypical. I am not sure whether mainstream Hellenistic Astrology has usable psychological concepts but it might have techniques that can be used in a psychological way - that is the techniques can be adapted to the context of 21st century life. Mercury conjunct the Lot of Fortune might be something that indicates a psychological reaction.
Ronia said:
Actually they are, and always have been, the qualities of a dignified or well placed Saturn. Saturn is the planet associated with a careful, rational, disciplined approach to life planning, especially long term planning, as Saturn is the planet of Time - of self restraint or control, operating within our own clear boundaries. Debilitated Saturn or badly placed Saturn is likely to produce the negative side of these qualities, fear of the unknown, an unwillingness to act, turning in on oneself, withdrawing from the world. As Liz Greene points out SAturn is never a bundle of fun, but at a Taskmaster or Teacher he can produce positive results. Think back to the teachers at school. Those that you liked on a personal level may not have left a lasting legacy in terms of knowledge, some that you found a bit ;frightening' or made you 'nervous' may actually have taught you something that lasts. I had two teachers like that at school. I found ther lessons periods of tension because they might ask awkward questions. Towards the time of my time with them, I realised that I was actually learning something from them, unlike some of the other teachers, despite the fact that I was not enamored of the subjects. I stopped resisting and actually worked with them. 50 years later I still have a good grasp of French as a result of a teacher I was slightly afraid of but recognised he knew his jog. To me he encapsulated dignified Saturn.
Ronia said:
Actually they did but for them Transits was the last thing that you checked, first you had to determine which signs/houses were active. This was identified from the Time Lords (rulers of main or sub periods of your life) Then you looked to the transits to fix the exact timing (well, as near as possible) Transits to inactive houses or planets were seen as being unproductive whereas transits to active houses or planet was seen as a good guide to events.
Ronia said:
Determining the Almuten of a chart (to use a medieval phrase) is not an easy process and includes or excludes factors on a subjective basis and indeed weights those factors on a subjective basis. This means that you can have disagreement on the end result, depending on whose method you use. I've just checked the results of the calculations using Solar Fire, Morinus and Delphic Oracle. I've quoted the scores to show how close it is but I'm not intending to branch off into a consideration of methods.
Solar Fire (Ibn Ezra)
Mars 33
Saturn 27
Moon 26
Morinus
Saturn 29
Moon [23]
Venus [22]
Delphic Oracle
Moon 32
Saturn 30
Mars 28
The difference in ranking and scores comes down to what factors are included. DO uses the method that Lilly inheritied, the Ibn Ezra method includes factors that are very debatable, the results will also vary somewhat (but not in terms of order) depending on which dignities you use, those cited by Ptolemy or the original Egyptian or Dorothean ones.
The interesting thing though is that they don't come up with random results. Moon and Saturn figure in the top three in every one. Mars is in two and only Venus is a seeming outlier.
Ronia said:
As I see it Mars sets the destination, Moon sets how the destination is to be achieved but Saturn still steers the ship and is first officer. The captain usually delegates the day to day management of steering anyway and the First Officer is usually the person who has hands on control, under the command of the captain. Whether this is a useful analogy is another matter. I too have doubts about it. I think that if I use it at all, I'll do it from the point of view of running a company and surviving in the market - a sort of Ronia PLC, LOL But that's because it's an analogy that fits to my own career and experience in teaching.
Ronia said:
Well given that the Moon shows up in all three Almuten of the Chart calculations, I think she would make the best choice, as you seem to have more connection with her than Mars. A Moon/Saturn pairing seems to be the suggestion from those calculations but I stress that it's a subjective assessment and there's no reason wny you have to go with two planets at all.
Minderwiz
Ana's Ship
Ana's Ascendant is Sagittarius. There are no planets in the first, so Jupiter becomes both Helmsman and First Office. Jupiter is in the twelfth House, so he is unconfigured to the Ascendant. In such circumstances the Ruler of Fortune becomes particularly important.
The Lot of Fortune is in the Ascendant, so Jupiter is both Ascendant ruler and ruler of Fortune. Like Ronia's chart, this seems to suggest that opportunities or threats will not easily be spotted and threfore taken advantage of. I think we will need to consider other planets as helpers, though steering remains the prerogative of Jupiter.
Ana's Destiny (destination) is set by the Sect Light. Now Ana's Sun is just below the horizon and in the previous post I took the chart to be nocturnal. However on reflection the Sun is closer to rising than the Moon (Sun in second house, Moon in third. The first rays of the Sun are already visible in the sky. So because of the difficulties of Jupiter's placement, the choice fSun or Moon might make a difference. This is one of the situations where it's not obvious what the sect of the chart is so I will try both, just to see if there is a significant difference. Firstly I'll try the Sun, which is in Capricorn. The gain here is that in a diurnal chart, Jupiter becomes the Benefic of Sect and Jupiter is responsible for both steering and taking advantage of opportunities and avoiding threats. As a day chart makes him stronger that might be a good thing.
If I go for the Sun the Saturn becomes the 'Managing Director' (Oikodepotes) as the Sun is in Capricorn. The Co-operating Officer helping Saturn oversee Ana's destiny is Mars as the Bound Lord of the Sun. This doesn't seem a very good combination. That being said, both of them are configured to the Ascendant by sextile.
Does the 'ship' have favourable winds? The Sun is in an Earth sign by Day (an arbitrary choice). The three Trigon Lords are 'Venus, Moon and Mars (in that order). Venus is in the third house, which is cadent. The Moon is also in the third and Mars is in the eleventh which is succedent. This combination seems to suggest that things will not go well for the first two periods of Ana's life but will improve significantly in the last period.
Looking at the Moon next, it's in Aquarius (both Lights are in signs contrary to sect). The Domicile Lord of the Moon is Saturn, so Saturn gets the role of MD under both Lights. The Bound Lord of the Moon is Mercury. We have lost Mars as a main player but in shifting to a night chart Saturn becomes the out of sect Malefic.
The Trigon Lords for a nocturnal chart will be Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter (in that order). Mercury is in the second, so it's in a succedent house and therefore pormises a moderate to good first period. Saturn is also in a succedent house, so the 'wind' will remain moderate to good in the second part. Jupiter is in a cadent house, so things will not be so good in the final years.
The key differences seem to be. With the Moon, destiny is set by the out of sect malefic (not desireable) but the first two periods of life are good. With the Sun, Destiny is set by the in-sect Malefic (Saturn in both cases) but he's aided by the out of sect malefic, Mars. Life is harder in the first two periods but improves in the last period.
That doesn't seem a great choice. There seems to be a possible modification, though. Because it's difficult to choose the sect of the chart with the Sun beginning to rise. The Ascendant itself could be used as a 'neutral' choice. This seems only to work for the choice of MD and Co-operating Officer - in this case Jupiter becomes the MD and Mars the Co-operating Officer.
To me it's just not clear which the answer should be. I would think it's one that either experience (of which I have little with Hellenistic practise) or a look at Ana's life till now, will possibly throw some light.
What does seem certain (in terms of Hellenistic Astrology) is that Jupiter rules the Ascendant and Fortune and is both cadent from the Ascendant and unconfigured to it. If we go for the Ascendant in choosing who is the MD, then Jupiter gets that role to. Jupiter decides Ana's Destiny but is supported by Mars. The positive of this team is that Mars is Jupiter's ruler, though not configured to him and Mars is in one of the better places in the chart.
I hope that when we get to the next two stages, some feedback from Ana will help to pin this down.
Ana's Ascendant is Sagittarius. There are no planets in the first, so Jupiter becomes both Helmsman and First Office. Jupiter is in the twelfth House, so he is unconfigured to the Ascendant. In such circumstances the Ruler of Fortune becomes particularly important.
The Lot of Fortune is in the Ascendant, so Jupiter is both Ascendant ruler and ruler of Fortune. Like Ronia's chart, this seems to suggest that opportunities or threats will not easily be spotted and threfore taken advantage of. I think we will need to consider other planets as helpers, though steering remains the prerogative of Jupiter.
Ana's Destiny (destination) is set by the Sect Light. Now Ana's Sun is just below the horizon and in the previous post I took the chart to be nocturnal. However on reflection the Sun is closer to rising than the Moon (Sun in second house, Moon in third. The first rays of the Sun are already visible in the sky. So because of the difficulties of Jupiter's placement, the choice fSun or Moon might make a difference. This is one of the situations where it's not obvious what the sect of the chart is so I will try both, just to see if there is a significant difference. Firstly I'll try the Sun, which is in Capricorn. The gain here is that in a diurnal chart, Jupiter becomes the Benefic of Sect and Jupiter is responsible for both steering and taking advantage of opportunities and avoiding threats. As a day chart makes him stronger that might be a good thing.
If I go for the Sun the Saturn becomes the 'Managing Director' (Oikodepotes) as the Sun is in Capricorn. The Co-operating Officer helping Saturn oversee Ana's destiny is Mars as the Bound Lord of the Sun. This doesn't seem a very good combination. That being said, both of them are configured to the Ascendant by sextile.
Does the 'ship' have favourable winds? The Sun is in an Earth sign by Day (an arbitrary choice). The three Trigon Lords are 'Venus, Moon and Mars (in that order). Venus is in the third house, which is cadent. The Moon is also in the third and Mars is in the eleventh which is succedent. This combination seems to suggest that things will not go well for the first two periods of Ana's life but will improve significantly in the last period.
Looking at the Moon next, it's in Aquarius (both Lights are in signs contrary to sect). The Domicile Lord of the Moon is Saturn, so Saturn gets the role of MD under both Lights. The Bound Lord of the Moon is Mercury. We have lost Mars as a main player but in shifting to a night chart Saturn becomes the out of sect Malefic.
The Trigon Lords for a nocturnal chart will be Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter (in that order). Mercury is in the second, so it's in a succedent house and therefore pormises a moderate to good first period. Saturn is also in a succedent house, so the 'wind' will remain moderate to good in the second part. Jupiter is in a cadent house, so things will not be so good in the final years.
The key differences seem to be. With the Moon, destiny is set by the out of sect malefic (not desireable) but the first two periods of life are good. With the Sun, Destiny is set by the in-sect Malefic (Saturn in both cases) but he's aided by the out of sect malefic, Mars. Life is harder in the first two periods but improves in the last period.
That doesn't seem a great choice. There seems to be a possible modification, though. Because it's difficult to choose the sect of the chart with the Sun beginning to rise. The Ascendant itself could be used as a 'neutral' choice. This seems only to work for the choice of MD and Co-operating Officer - in this case Jupiter becomes the MD and Mars the Co-operating Officer.
To me it's just not clear which the answer should be. I would think it's one that either experience (of which I have little with Hellenistic practise) or a look at Ana's life till now, will possibly throw some light.
What does seem certain (in terms of Hellenistic Astrology) is that Jupiter rules the Ascendant and Fortune and is both cadent from the Ascendant and unconfigured to it. If we go for the Ascendant in choosing who is the MD, then Jupiter gets that role to. Jupiter decides Ana's Destiny but is supported by Mars. The positive of this team is that Mars is Jupiter's ruler, though not configured to him and Mars is in one of the better places in the chart.
I hope that when we get to the next two stages, some feedback from Ana will help to pin this down.
Minderwiz
Ana's Captain??
There appear to be three contenders using Scmidt's method.
Saturn
Mercury
Mars
roughly in that order based on Schmidt's feeling that 'Fitness' is the correct criteria. This excludes Jupiter from the running because he is cadent to the Ascendant, in an Alien place (no dignities of his own or a sectmate) though he is rising and direct.
Looking at Morinus and Solar Fire and Delphic Oracle's medieval section I got
Morinus
Jupiter 37
Saturn 32
Mars 23
Solar Fire (Ibn Ezra)
Jupiter 34
Saturn 31
Mars 21
Delphic Oracle
Jupiter 39
Saturn 36
Mars 27
Saturn wins it for Schmidt (If I've read him right) Saturn is second for all the others. Jupiter is nowhere for Schmidt, Jupiter wins for the others comparatively easily. If Jupiter can exercise influence, he's best for sure. Schmidt appears not to believe he can, the others go for him. Let's see as we work through.
Edited to add
Whilst I do use the 'Lord of the Geniture' in my natal work, (the Delphic Oracle Method) It's not something I give very great weight to and I only use it in the assessment of temperament (basic character). I think the term 'captain' or 'chief nautical officer' is probably to overstate its importance. It doesn't seem something that I've seen repeated use of in the Hellenistic texts, but then I have only read some of the books once and perhaps a second reading migh tease more out.
Addemdum I've just re-read abut the Oikodespotes in Firmicus Maternus (4th Century) and he makes reference to a number of systems for determining it (includint the ruler of the Bounds of the Sun by Day or Moon by Night. Interestingly he translates this term as 'ruler of the chart', so Schmidt's idea of a 'chief nautical officer' seems to have been dropped in favour of the MD.
However Firmicus uses the ruler of the sign which the Moon next moves into, after the birth. However Moon and Sun are disqualified as they 'rule the whole' (of life the universe and everything) So Schmidt may well be describing the 'earliest' method but clearly not one that lasted through the whole period (Firmicus says that 'this method is 'universally approved'. i.e. it was the common method of his time. For Ronia, this would be Virgo (as Leo is excluded) making the Oikodespotes Mercury. For Ana it would be Jupiter as the Moon is in Aquarius and will move into Pisces.
I'm not sure that I'm any happier with this definition but at least it shows that the Ship example is not the only way of doing it.
There appear to be three contenders using Scmidt's method.
Saturn
Mercury
Mars
roughly in that order based on Schmidt's feeling that 'Fitness' is the correct criteria. This excludes Jupiter from the running because he is cadent to the Ascendant, in an Alien place (no dignities of his own or a sectmate) though he is rising and direct.
Looking at Morinus and Solar Fire and Delphic Oracle's medieval section I got
Morinus
Jupiter 37
Saturn 32
Mars 23
Solar Fire (Ibn Ezra)
Jupiter 34
Saturn 31
Mars 21
Delphic Oracle
Jupiter 39
Saturn 36
Mars 27
Saturn wins it for Schmidt (If I've read him right) Saturn is second for all the others. Jupiter is nowhere for Schmidt, Jupiter wins for the others comparatively easily. If Jupiter can exercise influence, he's best for sure. Schmidt appears not to believe he can, the others go for him. Let's see as we work through.
Edited to add
Whilst I do use the 'Lord of the Geniture' in my natal work, (the Delphic Oracle Method) It's not something I give very great weight to and I only use it in the assessment of temperament (basic character). I think the term 'captain' or 'chief nautical officer' is probably to overstate its importance. It doesn't seem something that I've seen repeated use of in the Hellenistic texts, but then I have only read some of the books once and perhaps a second reading migh tease more out.
Addemdum I've just re-read abut the Oikodespotes in Firmicus Maternus (4th Century) and he makes reference to a number of systems for determining it (includint the ruler of the Bounds of the Sun by Day or Moon by Night. Interestingly he translates this term as 'ruler of the chart', so Schmidt's idea of a 'chief nautical officer' seems to have been dropped in favour of the MD.
However Firmicus uses the ruler of the sign which the Moon next moves into, after the birth. However Moon and Sun are disqualified as they 'rule the whole' (of life the universe and everything) So Schmidt may well be describing the 'earliest' method but clearly not one that lasted through the whole period (Firmicus says that 'this method is 'universally approved'. i.e. it was the common method of his time. For Ronia, this would be Virgo (as Leo is excluded) making the Oikodespotes Mercury. For Ana it would be Jupiter as the Moon is in Aquarius and will move into Pisces.
I'm not sure that I'm any happier with this definition but at least it shows that the Ship example is not the only way of doing it.
Ronia
Oh, so now I have to add Mercury to the steering crew? I think there are no planets left out of the steering band. LOL I'm just getting a bit suspicious. Too many options, too many ways... I hope the ship does have someone to work on it after all this. LOL
Ronia
I do insist on the Sun, you do keep playing for Saturn. LOL On top of that Saturn is in detriment and according to your analysis, even in the 8th. I actually meant that I'm more on the observing side. I do not possess the planning of a purely saturnian person. My planning is based on passion. I do set my eyes on something and I follow it, wherever it goes but I do prefer to remain unnoticed. It's hunting, not scheduling. Saturnian people do schedule (Lord of Time), I watch and wait. Then jump on the thing. There is a difference. One is a careful approach, the wisdom of Saturn is everyday wisdom, IMHO. The other is hunger, pure instinct. So, as the Sun is in Scorpio but the Asc is in Capricorn, I guess both these somehow have mixed. I'm not sure about all these. As I wrote above, it seems we can find a way to make any planet in the chart a captain. I'm not convinced Saturn is the captain in my case either. The more I think about it, the less I see it... But the Moon alone is not convincing me either... Too watery, too emotional, too weaping... I actually can hardly stand the purely Cancerian nature, so the Moon alone couldn't work. May be the Saturn/Moon duo... But then from where comes the raw energy, the desire to compete and win, the hunger for competition? These are Marsian traits. I think it's not that simple as having one-two captains...
Minderwiz
Sorry you've lost me on this one....are you referring back to a post from a couple of days ago, on Mercury conjunct the Lot and Venus in mutual reception? If so that was a speculation that Mercury might assist Venus given the mutual reception, not an instruction to treat Mercury as being extra special
Actually in a real sense, even ignoring the ship metaphor, all the 7 planets (or 10 in a modern context) are 'officers' in the sense that they officiate or minister to an area of your life, They make take the lead in that area or they may do so with other 'officers' who are either in the house that they rule or in aspect to them. That might work out as a solo effort, a team effort or the efforts of a divided team, each one having different consequences.
One more modern way of looking at it is that your life is run or it;s unfolding is signified by a 'steering committee'. Now you have attempted to identify the main members of that committee through experience and chart position, others might try to pull out the more important members simply from the chart but either way, there's some subjectivity involved in the process.
