Pronunciation....

Ross G Caldwell

Lillie said:
It does where I come from.

And no. Not joking.
I have had this conversation before.

Carrot, tarot.
Both got a T at the end.

That's right. There's no right or wrong when it comes to language, just established usage.

If you can communicate your meaning, then the language is working. If everybody understands "tarrot" (parrot, carrot, ferret), but nobody understands "ta-row", then you'd better say it the way everybody understands.

Since almost nobody knows who "thoth" (=goth, moth, wroth etc.) OR "tote" (=goat, wrote, smote) is, then you can probably establish your own proper usage and authority to pontificate thereby.

When I first started, I and everybody I knew who even knew about tarot (a handful), said it like "carrot". Personally, I got rid of it, like several things in my accent, as I learned the reasons why there is a "t" at the end, and all the rest.

But it doesn't really matter, and nobody has the right to tell you to change your ways.
 

SarahRose

Lillie said:
It does where I come from.

And no. Not joking.
I have had this conversation before.

Carrot, tarot.
Both got a T at the end.


Sorry. I haven't been around long for a previous conversation. I agree that it's regional. I failed to notice you were from the UK. If that's how you pronounce it there, fine.
 

gregory

SarahRose said:
Sorry. I haven't been around long for a previous conversation. I agree that it's regional. I failed to notice you were from the UK. If that's how you pronounce it there, fine.
I'm from England and from Canada and have tarotical US friends. In all three countries I have heard both these words pronounced every which way. I really don't see that it matters. Now if I pronounce it in a way that means no-one knows what I mean - THAT matters ! :D
 

Lillie

Well, I don't know about the UK as a whole.

But where I live and the people I know, I'd be embarassed to say 'taro'.
Everyone would think I was being deliberatley pretentious and snobby.

It's the way I say it.

Anyone else can say it their way. I don't mind.
But I'm not changing my way for nothing and no one.

And anyhow, goth carrot is funny. Especially as I used to know someone called carrot (nickname) and she was a goth.
 

gregory

This is promising. Do you do carrot readings ? If asked nicely would you do me a parsnip one ? I like parsnips; they have a sense of humour (this is not that far off topic; it all ties in with there being no right answer to these things.)

Tomato.

You will never know how I say that unless we stand face to face in a restaurant...
Neither.
Either.

And so on. There can be majority views, but no single one.
 

gregory

Ross G Caldwell said:
Personally, I got rid of it, like several things in my accent, as I learned the reasons why there is a "t" at the end, and all the rest.
There is a definitive answer to that ? Are you sure ??! ;)
 

ravenest

Ross G Caldwell said:
"Thawth" is how most owners of the Thoth deck in North America (I don't know the English or Australian pronunciation) say it.

Thoth as in Goth ... mate.

we say it the way it is spelt :)
 

Fulgour

"Tee-thing"

gregory said:
There is a definitive answer to that ?
I imagine it's a T:Dthing... TaroTaroTaroTaro>T<oraToraToraToraT
 

Ross G Caldwell

gregory said:
There is a definitive answer to that ? Are you sure ??! ;)

Definitive? No - only probable. I'm only sure it's French, and that the T is supposed to be silent.

There are many ways to understand the word, and I prefer the historical.

"Tarot" is singular; like Italian "tarocco". Both are, historically, much rarer than the plural forms "tarots" and "tarocchi".

In the 16th and 17th centuries, the forms "taraux", "tarocs", "tarots", "taraults", "tareaux" even "taros" can be found. I don't know if I can cite "tarot" in the singular before 1700. I'm really not sure when the earliest occurence of this form is. But it is not the earliest by far.

The earliest form of the word is "taraux", found in Avignon, 1505. How was it pronounced? Already in Italy, "tarochi" existed too. Which language invented the word?

I believe the word was originally pronounced either "tar-oaks" or "tar-os" (long "o"). As the language changed, many final consonants became silent, although the old orthography was preserved. So the pronunciation in French became "taro" almost everywhere. The representation of that final vowel sound can be "o" or "au" or "eau", and for some (probably very logical) reason, French writers often liked to put a consonant after a final vowel (except for "e", which is silent except in song and poetry).

I think the predominance of the plural forms shows that the plural word was the original and normal way to say it, and that the singular is kind of a learned derivation.

In any case, the final "t" we are so familiar with, is an accident of history when the deck came to be known in English speaking places in the 19th century. Other spellings are far more common historically.

[Thierry Depaulis, probably the greatest authority, believes the word was ALWAYS pronounced "taro", and that the variety of final consonants demonstrates it. I only partially agree - I don't know how the Savoyards say the word "tarocs" for instance -; I think the original word should explain both the Italian and the French forms, and that around 1500 final consonants were still pronounced in France (i.e. "x" = s, so "tarocs" and "taraux" could be "tar-oaks" or "tar-os"). But by the end of the 16th century, it was indeed probably pronounced "taro" everywhere.]
 

gregory

Je ne sais pas. Mais en Angleterre on ne dit pas "Paree" pour Paris. Et en France on dit Londres, pas "London". A chacun pays sa langue et son prononciation propre, je crois ! :D