Marseilles decks: Translating French card titles?

Rusty Neon

Rusty Neon said:
It's true. That's interesting about the Fool card. In the 1760 Conver, he's called LE MAT. But the Marteau deck (1930) dubs him LE FOU.

oh my ... I can't believe I wrote that.

All three of Marteau/Grimaud/Fournier retain the title Le Mat from the 1760 Conver TdM. The 1701 Jean Dodal Tarot de Marseille does, however, use the title Le Fol. Various other decks in French, Marseilles-based or otherwise, sometimes do use the modern variant Le Fou.
 

Shade

Ok...I have to admit... I m usually a straight-forward reader but every once in a while I can get a bit theatrical. The deck I use has Italian titles and for effect I sometimes read the card in Italian first. "Ah, La Apesso, the Hanged man." I have even used otehr titles. "Hmm the Hanged Man, le cabrit sans cor" I might have mispelled that and I apologise, it's term in creole french used in Vodoun to mean "goat without horns" (human sacrifice). I have also taken to calling the Fool the Beloved of God (as I mentioned in another thred). The truly ironic thing is that I hate deck with kywords printed on them.

Some phrases just don't sound the same translated in english.
 

punchinella

valets

I tend to think of the English term "valet" as referring specifically to a person who serves food, dusts collars, polishes shoes, etc. . . . as a person, elegant in appearance & demeanor, who keeps things running oh-so-smoothly indoors.

A page, on the other hand (correct me if I'm wrong?) is somebody specifically associated with royalty, who carries a horn & travels throughout the land blowing upon it & then reading out royal proclamations . . .

& a knave is--well, a knave is simply lowly. --A person of little dignity & less honor, a churl . . .

Without checking meanings in the dictionary, these are the associations wired into my brain for these words. I'm curious to know whether valet (or vaslet?) in French corresponds more specifically to any one of these than another? --Or whether it carries connotations of all of the above?

Just curious--P.
 

Rusty Neon

tmgrl2 said:
One thing I noticed when I looked at my new C-J deck was that they used baton] for all but Reyne de Baston...why the inconsistency? I know that the removable "s" has been replaced by the accent (circonflexe/circumflex?) but was curious..

:) If you think that's inconsistent, then check out these titles of Swords court cards from the 1701 Dodal TdM deck:

VALET DEPEES
CHEVALIER DESPETS
REINE DESPEIE S [sic]
ROY DESPEE
 

Moonbow

Maybe this is off topic slightly but is it Marseille or Marseilles?

I tend to use Marseilles because I'm English and I think that is the English version.

I don't speak french (more's the pitty) and so don't use all the french words in the Marseilles - just like you were saying about Paris and Paree Rusty - It feels - wrong to me, like I'm not using the English language properly.

As said before though (Diana has corrected me on this - with thanks) I wouldn't say Wands or Pentacles but do say Cups and Swords (as apposed to coupes (sp?) and Epees (sp?)

I try to keep the French feel of the deck with my English style

Make sense?
 

Rusty Neon

Marseille is the French spelling of the city's name. Marseilles is the English spelling.

Therefore, it's

Tarot de Marseille

but

Tarot of Marseilles
 

Major Tom

Diana said:
Valet, I normally also call a Valet. I think it's quite understandable as well, even in English (or am I wrong?) Otherwise, Page is quite okay to me. I think that is the correct translation.

Batons does sound odd in English. I agree with Rusty Neon. I use Batons, because it's closer to the French word. But if I had to choose another English word, I would prefer Clubs to Rods.

Maison-Dieu, I prefer to use the expression "Tower of God" than House of God.

Oddly enough this is a topic that has been much on my mind as I week by week create my own Tarot of Marseilles. I don't speak French and have never really studied it, so this is a real struggle. (I took German in school, but that's a different story).

I've been struggling with a translation for Valet even though Valet seems perfectly serviceable. I've struggled with Batons as well even though I can relate to Batons, the iconography seems closer to Clubs.

Maison-Dieu is also a struggle, I chose to translate this as House of God though it might have been more accurate to translate it as God's House. Following this through to it's logical conclusion, for many people speaking of God's House, they are talking about the church building, so couldn't it also translate as The Church? Most church buildings in England have a tower. ;)

As for Le Mat, he will have to remain The Fool for me. :laugh:
 

punchinella

more on valets (I'm obsessing)

Okay, I've finally gone to Webster's to look these words up.

Valet [F. valet, O.F. vallet, varlet, vaslet] A manservant; now, one who attends a man, taking care of his clothes and assisting with his toilet, etc.; a valet de chambre; a body servant.

Page [F., of uncertain origin; cf. It. paggio] 1. A boy; a youth. 2. A man of humble birth or status or of rude manners; a menial;--often contemptuous, sometimes opprobrious. 3. A serving boy in general; specifically, formerly, a youth undergoing training for knighthood, who acted as the personal attendant of his master and mistress, and after seven or eight years of service and instruction became a squire, or a youth attending a person of high degree, esp. at courts, as a service of honor and education . . .

Knave [M.E., boy, servant, knave] 1. A man child; a boy. 2. A boy servant; hence, a male servant or menial; a man of humble birth or position. 3. A tricky, deceitful fellow; an unscrupulous person; a rogue; a rascal. 4. A playing card marked with the figure of a servant or soldier; a jack. Synonyms--cheat, rascal, rogue, scoundrel, miscreant.

(From Webster's New Intl., 1934)

So, it looks to me as though, while these words could all be construed to mean the same thing, page & knave carry connotations of youth that valet does not. Also, knave is much more negative in connotation than page & valet. What our modern associations with these words are may be beside the point; but the issue of youth does seem pertinent. Are these people in training for something better, or is this as good as life gets, for them? Visually, I would say that (in my Hadar deck) Valet/Cups & Valet/Batons look decidedly un-youthful.
 

Shalott

Good gawd I'm weird. Since my first exposure to Tarot was...I THOUGHT it was Swiss 1JJ but it had a Le Pape and a La Papesse so it couldn't have been...Now with my RWS and other English decks, I immediately think of the French titles. I am SOOO looking forward to getting Hadar's. Mayhaps it'll be like coming home...this is definitely how I learned Roman numerals. To quote Bart Simpson, they didnt even *try* to teach that in school...

IIII = 4!
 

tmgrl2

I know ....the IIII really threw me when I got my first TdM decks...thought I had cards missing! Duhhh....

terri