Debra
All Is One said:
*thud*
*picks self off floor*
*walks to mirror, admires self, smirks*
Thanx, All is One! Today, One vote! Tomorrow...the US Presidency! Woo hoo!
What is the King of Pentacles foot resting on?
*thud*
*picks self off floor*
*walks to mirror, admires self, smirks*
Thanx, All is One! Today, One vote! Tomorrow...the US Presidency! Woo hoo!
All Is One
Interesting Stuff
Even though I do see only the helmet, I am also very interested in the Crowley and Waite stuff Rosanne is talking about and I feel humbled by my ignorance. I thought I'd been around the Tarot block a few times, but now it appears I was off to the left and downtown at least a few miles away from "The Tarot Block" and missed a lot. The Ape of Thoth is fascinating...I don't have any books on Crowley specifically, so I will wait until after Christmas and start studying up...
I even put away my "Mysteria Magica" and several other serious Occultist study books awhile ago to keep the "witch" stuff a bit more private after moving in with Andy almost seven years ago and having step kids over all the time.
Time to get back to now, since they are old enough to handle their own opinions by now.
Even though I do see only the helmet, I am also very interested in the Crowley and Waite stuff Rosanne is talking about and I feel humbled by my ignorance. I thought I'd been around the Tarot block a few times, but now it appears I was off to the left and downtown at least a few miles away from "The Tarot Block" and missed a lot. The Ape of Thoth is fascinating...I don't have any books on Crowley specifically, so I will wait until after Christmas and start studying up...
I even put away my "Mysteria Magica" and several other serious Occultist study books awhile ago to keep the "witch" stuff a bit more private after moving in with Andy almost seven years ago and having step kids over all the time.
Time to get back to now, since they are old enough to handle their own opinions by now.
kwaw
The Butterfly Net
Off the top of my head I think Moonchild was much later, it was written while he was in America 1914-18 but not published till much later, 1929 comes to mind, because I think this date is hooked into my memory as first literary reference to the triple goddess concept maiden, mother, crone according to Hudson (although we don't find it fully elucidated until Graves) that appears in Moonchild (though I believe reference to such appears in the notes to Crowley's earlier 777).
I think Moonchild is very funny in parts, most of the characters Crowley lampoons in it are easily recognisable and his descriptions of the black magicians (waite, mathers, yeats, et al) spell casting are as funny as for example Tom Sharpes descriptions of excessive feasts in some of his books (Porterhouse Blue, Ancestral Vices). Also it is about conflicts between two groups of magicians, not magicians and mystics.
Moonchild is available online here:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/moonchild/index.html
Kwaw
Rosanne said:Now Waite on the other hand 1902, precipitated a schism in the Golden Dawn the following year. He purged magic from the rituals, replacing it with mysticism. During this time Crowley wrote a book called Moonchild in which he cast Waite as a villian Arthwait. Its plot involves a magical war between a group of white magicians, and a group of black magicians over an unborn child.
So here we have a possible fight between Magic (Crowley) and Mysticism (Waite). It is said that Magician wants to get and a Mystic wants to give- it of course goes deeper than this- but anyway in my book in this card the King of Pentacles- Waite the white magician won and Crowley lost, trampled underfoot, depicted as Thoth the Ape.
Of course this cannot be proved.
~Rosanne
Off the top of my head I think Moonchild was much later, it was written while he was in America 1914-18 but not published till much later, 1929 comes to mind, because I think this date is hooked into my memory as first literary reference to the triple goddess concept maiden, mother, crone according to Hudson (although we don't find it fully elucidated until Graves) that appears in Moonchild (though I believe reference to such appears in the notes to Crowley's earlier 777).
I think Moonchild is very funny in parts, most of the characters Crowley lampoons in it are easily recognisable and his descriptions of the black magicians (waite, mathers, yeats, et al) spell casting are as funny as for example Tom Sharpes descriptions of excessive feasts in some of his books (Porterhouse Blue, Ancestral Vices). Also it is about conflicts between two groups of magicians, not magicians and mystics.
Moonchild is available online here:
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/moonchild/index.html
Kwaw
Rosanne
A Specimen Jar after netting
Firstly Kwaw is right he wrote Moonchild in 1917 well after the printing of RWS.
I should have checked the dates. I apologise. It was not a good example of the schism between Crowley and Waite to use and illustrate.
I was trying to indicate the enmity between Crowley and Waite. I did describe the plot as a fight between two groups of Magicians not mystics and magicians, but I should have made the last paragraph clearer- I was not talking about the book- but the the ideals of the splintered groups and the two men in particular.
Crowley saw himself as a Magikian and Waite saw himself as a Christian Mystic and the comments they both made shows there was no love lost between them.
With all the splintering within the Golden Dawn it was not long until various groups were forming. Followers of Mathers formed the Alpha et Omega Temple. In 1903 A. E. Waite left with others to form a society retaining the Golden Dawn name but with more emphasis on mysticism than magic. It was prior to this that Crowley had been ejected from the Society.
I think Waite's main objection was that Crowley said he was the re-incarnation of Levi- and Waite maybe thought that not likely lol. Whatever the truth is-This enmity between the two was well established before the printing of the RWS and it is my contention that this Helmet/Bull/Idol is a depiction of the Thoth the Ape in a derogatory way = Crowley
~Rosanne
It is not outrageous to think Pamela depicted people in various lights in the RWS- for example it may have been Jack Yeats on his small red horse (WB Yeat's brother painted horses, and was a friend to Pamela) that is the Knight of Wands- just as Waite may be the Elder on the 10 Pentacles and Ellen Terry the 9 Pentacles)
Firstly Kwaw is right he wrote Moonchild in 1917 well after the printing of RWS.
I should have checked the dates. I apologise. It was not a good example of the schism between Crowley and Waite to use and illustrate.
I was trying to indicate the enmity between Crowley and Waite. I did describe the plot as a fight between two groups of Magicians not mystics and magicians, but I should have made the last paragraph clearer- I was not talking about the book- but the the ideals of the splintered groups and the two men in particular.
Crowley saw himself as a Magikian and Waite saw himself as a Christian Mystic and the comments they both made shows there was no love lost between them.
This is a quote from here : http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/crowley.htm
With all the splintering within the Golden Dawn it was not long until various groups were forming. Followers of Mathers formed the Alpha et Omega Temple. In 1903 A. E. Waite left with others to form a society retaining the Golden Dawn name but with more emphasis on mysticism than magic. It was prior to this that Crowley had been ejected from the Society.
This is from Wikipedia and other sources.
I think Waite's main objection was that Crowley said he was the re-incarnation of Levi- and Waite maybe thought that not likely lol. Whatever the truth is-This enmity between the two was well established before the printing of the RWS and it is my contention that this Helmet/Bull/Idol is a depiction of the Thoth the Ape in a derogatory way = Crowley
~Rosanne
It is not outrageous to think Pamela depicted people in various lights in the RWS- for example it may have been Jack Yeats on his small red horse (WB Yeat's brother painted horses, and was a friend to Pamela) that is the Knight of Wands- just as Waite may be the Elder on the 10 Pentacles and Ellen Terry the 9 Pentacles)
