Need some help learning/mastering midpoints

RohanMenon

Hello,
I'm an amateur astrologer trying to break away from psychological approaches and to more event oriented astrology.

As a part of this effort, I'm trying to learn the use of midpoints (within the context of Western Sidereal and David Monroe's - dadsnook's - approaches. but am a little stuck, and would appreciate some assistance. The attraction of course is that one can do away with houses etc and still get good readings.

The 'methodology' of midpoints seem to be this.

Suppose a planet is at the midpoint of two planets. For e.g in my chart, Mars is at the midpoint of Pluto and Uranus within 4 minutes, written as Mars = Uranus/Pluto.

So far, so good.

I am a little stuck wrt the interpretation. The 'standard approach' seems to be to look it up in a book like Ebertin's, which gives "Principle : The process of transformation" etc and positive and negative 'pyschological manifestations' etc.

This has two problems:

(1) I can't see how Ebertin came up with this principle. Are we supposed to blindly take this on trust and memorize (say 10 planets + 4 angles) * 14 = 196 interpretations?

There must be a structured way of combining the 'essential nature' of Pluto and Uranus without looking it up in a book (like interpreting say "Mercury trine Venus"), and also some theory about how three planets in a 'midpoint' structure combine.

I haven't been able to find any principle by which three planets forming a midpoint combine to give an interpretation, *without* looking it up.

(2) In the absence of houses and signs, how does one customize the meaning of these midpoints for people born within days of each other? I know very different people all born within the same week in the same city for which this midpoint is identical.

I am just a beginner, so these may be very stupid questions with obvious answers, but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Rohan
 

Barleywine

It won't help with interpretation, of course, but here's one way to approach analysis of mid-points between the "hard" aspects.

http://www.uranian-institute.org/bf90dialexplan.htm

There is also the work of Alfred Witte, which preceded Ebertin's, but I don't have it. Possibly it has more conceptual explanations. In addition, there is this Ebertin work, but I haven't read it.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2647622-applied-cosmobiology#

Regarding three-planet combinations, there is Planetary Containments by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard, which doesn't confine itself to mid-point structure, but might have some useful insights. I never found it of much value in practice, though. It seems to draw from this concept, but I don't remember exactly:

http://theastrologydictionary.com/t/translation-of-light/

The work of Volguine on planetary containments is another possibility.
 

RohanMenon

Thanks Barleywine

I understand how the 90 degree dial works, but thanks for the link :). Good to have my understanding confirmed.

My confusion is not so much about detecting a midpoint (I use Solar Fire's dial feature) but about (a) interpreting a given midpoint without having to memorize/look up in a 'canonical' book (b) customizing to different people/ differentiating effects in different people with the same midpoint in their charts in the absence of signs and houses.

Thanks and well met,
Rohan
 

Barleywine

I understand how the 90 degree dial works, but thanks for the link :). Good to have my understanding confirmed.

My confusion is not so much about detecting a midpoint (I use Solar Fire's dial feature) but about (a) interpreting a given midpoint without having to memorize/look up in a 'canonical' book (b) customizing to different people/ differentiating effects in different people with the same midpoint in their charts in the absence of signs and houses.

Thanks and well met,
Rohan

I notice that there is some discussion in the front pages of The Combination of Stellar Influences that sheds at least a little light on how Ebertin derived his combined meanings; none of it looks very arcane. In practice, I find it to be mostly a "cut-to-fit" proposition: take what you know about the inherent nature of the planets involved and any aspects they might form in the combination, then add some of the older ideas about planetary interactions (containment, beseigement, "translation of light," orientation and speed - "applying or separating," "dexter-and-sinister" - etc.) and concoct an interpretation that makes sense to you. I don't know of any more rigidly structured way to do it, unless there are some blog postings from some of the experts out there that explain it. The cosmobiologists considered the planetary energies and the "hard" aspects to be of primary importance in showing the "what" and pretty much did away with the "where" (houses). I'm not quite sure to what extent they relied on the signs - the "how" - but I suspect it was secondary. Personally, I found Ebertin's "Principle" and "Probably Manifestations" entries to be the most valuable in organizing my own approach, the "Psychological, "Biological" and "Sociological" stuff less so.
 

RohanMenon

Ah that is useful

This helps a bit.
Thank You.
As you notice, I'm completely lost with all this :)
 

Barleywine

This helps a bit.
Thank You.
As you notice, I'm completely lost with all this :)

Hopefully one of the two Daves will weigh in on this. My mid-point chops are pretty rusty right now since I've been focusing mostly on horary astrology.
 

Minderwiz

I really think you need an answer direct from Dave himself. As he is a forum member you could try dropping him a PM about your query and ask him to post a reply.

I don't use, and indeed never have used midpoints, so I can't be much help, even thogh I pursuebannevent oriented approach. That doesn't invalidate them bynany means. We each have our own armoury of techniques
 

dadsnook2000

Midpoints -- yes.

I do drop in every couple of days to see what is happening. Now, midpoints have come up!

First, a comment on midpoint history. As I understand it, Witte and others were astounded by the fateful disaster of World War I. Why were some blown apart by a motar, the soldier two feet away was untouched. Many thousands of charts were constructed and studied. Two broad results came from this very large project (supported by many astrologers). The use of midpoints (seemingly first popularized by Bonnati in the 1400's(?) in Italy. The many combinations of A=B/C were refined. The other significant outcome of this extensive effort was that Witte sensed that several unseen 'planets' might explain some of the results and charts that he studied. He invented eight hypothetical planets, now refered to as the Uranian system or as Asymmetrical Astrology.

Ebertin ultimately took the standard planet midpoints as his own focus. He continued to test and refine his methods. In addition to 'The Comination of Stellar Influences", which is the primary book to use for definitions, there are other useful books. I have had all of his books at one time, now I use only a few of them. 'Applied Cosmobiology' is a guide to using the 90 degree wheel and applying interpretations. 'The Annual Diagram as an Aid in Life' focuses upon the use of the graphic ephemeris -- a 45 degree chart on which planets are plotted over a years time. The crossing points and references to natal planet positions permits one to attempt daily predicive work.

There are two other books that might be useful. 'Midpoints' by Don McBroom is more like a conventional astrological primer. It explains the basics and then takes the reader trough levels and areas of applications. Delineations are more extensively written about and explained. This might be a book you should examine and consider using if it suits you. Witte's book, written with Lefeldt, is 'Rules for Planetary Pictures' is more complex than is Ebertin's book which only covers the primary planets, ascendant, MC, N.Node.

Some of the English authors, such as David Hamblin, and his 'Harmonic Charts' make extensive use of midpoints within harmonic charts. Others, such as a life-long friend, Martha Lang-Wescott, has done extensive research on asteroids and combines that work with extensive and highly detailed books on the use of the 90 degree wheel and midpoints. Much as I love her and respect her work, and make use of her interpretations, I would not recommend you delving into her books. As a life-long capable astrologer, and her teacher at one time, I have to pay close attention to her instructions and use of astrology in order to follow her.

Second, how do you develop a facility for self-interpretation of midpoint structures? Minderwiz mentioned 'Planets in Containment', one of my favorite books. Yet, it is an example of a simple concept that is hard to adapt. I have found it to be highly accurate and very sophisticated in its interpretations. I refer to it when I run into patterns that are unusual in a chart, especially when a lack of aspects is evident. But I would not try to remember each combination or to attempt to delineate a combination -- as I know my efforts would pale compared to the two authors who have created an inspired book.

My best suggestion is to use 'Midpoints' by Don McBroom as a primary tools for achieving the facility in interpretation that you desire to have.

Another suggestion is to purchase software that offers pop-up midpoint interpretations. Such software is expensive. It is not available as an Internet offering.

This should get you started. I do check back onto this site often. I'll be happy to offer my ideas or help with an question you post. Dave
 

RohanMenon

What a wonderful reply dadsnook

Thank You.
That was immensely helpful.

I've been digging into Ebertin's books trying to understand the theory of midpoints, and this is what I have so far ( I hope such 'research findings' are ok to post on this forum. Newbie here, so if this is not appropriate, let me know)

These 'core meanings' of the planets (from Ebertin's book "Transits") are assumed


Sun: Creative Spirit, Excitement of Life, male, heart, day

Moon: Soul, Fertility, Female, mutability, bodily fluids, night

Mercury : mind, thinking, intellect, science, commerce, nerves, language

Venus: Love, attraction, beauty, art, joy, harmony, virginity (??)

Mars: Drive, desire, energy, willpower, action, activity, effort

Jupiter: Satisfaction, happiness, wealth, luck, morality (??), ethics, law, community, family, marriage

Saturn: Restriction, organic/psychological inhibitions, experience, concentration, mental and emotional pain, separation, grief

Uranus: Suddenness , Release of tensions, excitement, emotion, rebellion, reform, inventions, intuition

Neptune: Receptivity, deception, susceptibility, disorganization, paralysis, wearing down, psychoses

Pluto: Force majeure, providence, power, transformation, the masses, change

Nodes: associations with other persons, sexual connections (??), fellowship, cooperation


Ascendant: Personality, behavior towards other persons, development of the personality.

Descendant: Ego, individuality and life.


Ebertin goes on to say (in the book "Tranits" ) that these core meanings can be combined to give interpretations for combinations of planets. (His) e.g : Sun represents male and Moon represents female, so their combination could stand for marriage, parents etc


So far so good. This is fairly 'standard' astrology.

Now I turn to CoSI for the 'manufacturing process" of interpreting midpoints (which Ebertin calls "half sums")


On page 21 he extends the concept about combining two planetary meanings and mentions that such combinations have positive and negative manifestations,( irrespective of whether the planets are benefic or malefic by tradition) He gives the example of a Venus-Jupiter opposition (both benefic planets) manifesting both positive and negative effects.


He focuses only on the 'hard' aspects - opposition and square, plus the semisquare, and sesquisquare (spelling?) . (my comment: I am personally not so sure about abandoning trines and sextiles).


On page 22, Ebertin introduces midpoints *as a way of evaluating three planet combinations.* and and refers to Bonatti [1], Charles Carter, and Alan Leo as his predecessors who used such 'half sums'.



my comment: aha, so this is way of doing fine analysis of a chart. First one looks at individual planets and their role (traditionally this would be done by analysis of sign, house, dignities etc), then combinations of planets (formed by aspects) and once that is complete, then midpoints to evaluate 3 planets at a time. The assumption of this theory is that a midpoint of two planets is a sensitive area - I haven't seen any justification of why this should be true, but if you treat it as an assumption, then the rest of the theory makes sense.

More in another post. This is long enough.

[1] There was some discussion about whether Bonatti actually used midpoints in the SkyScript Forum, but it was inconclusive iirc
 

RohanMenon

Part 2 of my inquiry

into how Ebertin came up with his delineations

On page 31 Ebertin reveals how exactly he came up with the various interpretations for CoSI. (duh I should have read the book carefully vs skipping the 'boring' parts)


He has a four step process:

1. The essential natures of the planets Saturn - Inhibition, Uranus - Sudden agitation

2. Combine these to get a *psychological* 'principle' , so Inhibition + Agitation = Emotional Tension

3. create some 'synonyms' (my term) for this state of mind, with a view to how this 'principle' would manifest in someone's mind, so we get (quoting the book) "inner irritability, nervous unrest, rebellliousness, the urge to be free (in order to liberate oneself from a restricting situation)



4. Create a list of probably manifestations (of each factor of 3) in relation to the external environment, so (as per the book) we have (irritability + nervousness) --> causation of unrest in the environment, rebellion -> separation, the urge to be free -> the use of force


The actual Saturn/Uranus page (246) has some extra detail, the underlying principle of which seems to be



(a) delineate both positive and negative psychological 'handling' of the core psychological principle (here 'emotional tension' see step 2 above)- so we have (+) ability to cope with every situation (-) emotional conflict, provocative conduct. This can be seen as an elaboration of step 3 above


(b) delineate positive and negative manifestations - an elaboration of step 4 - so we have (+) growth of strength caused by overcoming difficulties (-) limitation of freedom


Then this pattern is 'equated' in a planetary picture sense to all the other planets folding in their meanings and interpretations derived.

He also creates sociological ("violent people") and medical ("Inhibition of heart rhythm") etc interpretations following the same principles.


So for Sun = Saturn/Uranus we have Physical (Sun) exposure to tests of strength

Moon = Saturn Uranus -> Emotional (Moon) tension and strain etc.


So *that* is how the various CoSI delineations were derived.

Now that I see the mechanism clearly, I can recreate the delineations independently and use the CoSI book delineations as a feedback mechanism. A

ll good. Matching these with real events in the lives of the people whose natal charts I have will further refine my understanding.

If I had read the book carefully, I would have found these bits. Sorry for wasting everyone's time!

Greatly appreciate all the advise and feedback.