Traditional French & Italian Divinatory Meanings for the Numbered Minor Arcana Cards

Traditional French & Italian Divinatory Meanings for the Numbered Minor Arcana Cards

My question relates to the (pre-Etteilla, non-Etteilla, non-occultist) traditional 'fortune-telling' divinatory meanings from France and Italy for playing cards and for the numbered minor arcana of the Tarot. Those tarot and playing card divinatory meanings often appear to have no correlation to numerology, nor to the number or suit of the card. Nor do those tarot divinatory meanings appear to have any correlation to the correspondingly numbered tarot trump card.

I was wondering what tarot and playing card historians have theorized as being the rationale / explanation for such traditional divinatory meanings that seem to have no correlation with numerology, number, suit or trump card. In other words, what is the basis for those divinatory meanings if it's not numerology, number, suit or trump card?

Thanks in advance!

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Edited to add clarifying text in bold.

Re: Traditional French & Italian Divinatory Meanings for the Numbered Minor Arcana Cards

Rusty Neon said:

My question relates to the (pre-Etteilla, non-Etteilla, non-occultist) traditional 'fortune-telling' divinatory meanings from France and Italy for playing cards and for the numbered minor arcana of the Tarot.
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I thought Etteilla's meanings of the playing cards were supposedly based upon those 'traditional' at his time?

What are the pre-Etteilla, non-occult meanings? Is there a source where I can find them?

Kwaw

Re: Traditional French & Italian Divinatory Meanings for the Numbered Minor Arcana Cards

Rusty Neon said:

My question relates to the (pre-Etteilla, non-Etteilla, non-occultist) traditional 'fortune-telling' divinatory meanings from France and Italy for playing cards and for the numbered minor arcana of the Tarot. Those divinatory meanings often appear to have no correlation to numerology, nor to the number or suit of the card. Nor do those divinatory meanings appear to have any correlation to the correspondingly numbered tarot trump card.

I was wondering what tarot and playing card historians have theorized as being the rationale / explanation for such traditional divinatory meanings that seem to have no correlation with numerology, number, suit or trump card.

Thanks in advance!

____________________________

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http://trionfi.com/0/s/g/

About 80 Fortune-telling decks in the Museum

Some of them have meanings on the cards, although most of these are Russsian.

I don't know about any historical opinions in this matter.

Re: Re: Traditional French & Italian Divinatory Meanings for the Numbered Minor Arcan

kwaw said:

What are the pre-Etteilla, non-occult meanings? Is there a source where I can find them?

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Yes, Rusty, can you tell us what meanings you're referring to and where we can read them?

Thanks --
Lee

Fulgour said:

Once upon a time there was a chance, a really good chance, that people, and not books, were the final authority. If you wanted someone to prove something, you asked them ~ and they told you.

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Damn!

We should have a smilie for applause.

There are so many people here who contribute so generously, a certain rusty knight among them. I'm in absolute awe.

I must admit I'd like to know which meanings are referred.

Near as I can tell the meanings are what comes to the individual. I just make it up as I go along.

Of course I'm speaking strictly personally, but I think everyone has a valid contribution here.

I'm absolutely sure that the Marseilles is the closest we can get to that originally intended.

The link to the Payen is priceless. Why doesn't someone print it? Is there a copyright involved?

Re: Traditional French & Italian Divinatory Meanings for the Numbered Minor Arcana Cards

Rusty Neon said:

My question relates to the (pre-Etteilla, non-Etteilla, non-occultist) traditional 'fortune-telling' divinatory meanings from France and Italy for playing cards and for the numbered minor arcana of the Tarot.

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Rusty Neon: I went specially up to the local library for you today which has a large section on Divination and where I have found some treasures in the past. There was absolutely nothing I could find about this subject.

But it is indeed a subject worthy of more research. These guys surely based their ideas on SOMETHING.

Well, I'm always interested in such things myself.

I did find one site, mentioning my recently acquired Arista (bet you are fed up with hearing about that) and also the Belline Tarot as known "traditions". The following provided some useful background: http://www.tarotpassages.com/mkgtimeline.htm

Then I followed up the Belline link to: http://ln.com.ua/~kostenko/pctarot.html where I find e.g. the (somewhat unusual) names of the Arista major arcana ("La Pierre Cubique" for Emperor etc.) are by one Paul Christian...

Later, but Interesting nevertheless? And offered without further comment.

Macavity

Diana said:

These guys surely based their ideas on SOMETHING.

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Indeed. I'm scratching my head as to what the basis of traditional divinatory meanings [DMs] for playing cards or tarot numbered minor arcana cards might be (in the case of DMs that aren't explainable by reference to numerology, number, suit, card design or corresponding trump card). It's as if, for example:

• a fortune-teller came up with what he thought was a useful list of DMs for the cards as a whole for the purposes of doing readings and then, in some arbitrary manner, he assigned DMs from that list to the various cards without reference to numerology, number, suit, card design, or trump card, or
  
• he came up with the DMs based on empirical observations and conclusions (e.g., he may find that there's a certain card which, over a large number of readings, shows a strong correlation with a certain prediction, such as 'success in a business venture', 'a pregnancy', etc., and therefore, as one of the DMs for that certain card, he assigns that prediction to that card.)

Lee said:

Yes, Rusty, can you tell us what meanings you're referring to and where we can read them?

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There are many different sets of divinatory meanings (DMs) for playing cards and tarot numbered minor arcana cards. For example:

• LWBs for various Lo Scarabeo historical decks, drawn from lists of Italian or other European cartomancy/taromancy traditional DMs.
  
• The card keywords from the Grand Etteilla and Petit Etteilla decks (which are drawn from some of the cartomancy/taromancy DMs used as references by Etteilla). However, Etteilla may have also invented some of those card keywords on his own!
  
• Various pre-20th century playing card suited oracle decks from France with printed keywords, e.g., Jeu du Destin Antique or Sybille des Salons.
  
• Various other European playing card suited oracle decks. I haven't checked the link that Huck gave, but there may be decks there whose cards have printed keywords.
  
• Cartomancy/taromancy manuals (especially those that are written in European languages other than English) giving lists of pre-20th century, traditional DMs.

Generally, whenever I glance at such sets of DMs for playing cards or numbered minor arcana cards, I just can't see any correlation with numerology, number, suit, card design or trump card.



Edited: to correct Sybille deck name

I have a 1966 book by Walter and Litzka Gibson called The Complete Illustrated Book of the Psychic Sciences. This book contains divinitory meanings for playing cards, dice, and dominoes, as well as superficial overviews of sun sign astrology, dream interpretations, a fairly good overview of old fashioned palm reading, a handful of talismans from the Black Pullet, and observations about numerology and teacup reading.

The book is dismissive of Tarot, observing that "Devotees of the Tarot still regard it with a sentiment akin to awe, but it is hard to share their view." Curiously, the book is illustrated with small line drawings of the Trumps apparently based on the Wirth 1889 deck, but gives no DMs for them. It does however give a full set of DMs for playing cards. We learn that the 3 of clubs is:

"A sign of a second marriage and often of a third, with good prospects. Sometimes indicates a long engagement to one person followed by a marriage to someone else, after a friendly parting."

There does not appear to be any particular system in the divinatory meanings. A bibliography, of course, would be too much to ask. There are intriguing parallels in the system given to traditional tarot cartomancy lore, though; we learn that the 9 of Hearts is the "wish card" and that the 3 of Spades is a card of "trouble in love and marriage." But the 5 of Spades portends "business success and a happy marriage," though they will only be gained "after many misfortunes."

Hearts are lucky, generally; spades unlucky; clubs mean friends and diamonds mean money. Complicated, multicard spreads are taught that require anywhere from thirteen to twenty-one cards, bearing in mind that these are out of a deck of fifty-two.

Throughout all of the systems presented, there seems to be a disconcerting emphasis on romantic intrigue; an indication, I suspect, that these Psychic Sciences were meant to appeal chiefly to adolescent girls. We learn that the Four-Three domino counsels you to:

"Marry young and live a modest, happy life, augurs this domino. It also, in turn, promises at least one child and a very comfortable living."

No word is given as to what the domino might mean for those unable for whatever reason to fulfil its augury.