Gay Tarot - 2 of Cups

Lee, It's really fascinating to hear your early thoughts for some of the cards !

The two of Cups really challenged me here. Whenever I read with a traditional deck It would never have previously crossed my mind that the relationship issues being raised were ones of self relating yet this is such a valid and viable interpretation. I'm glad that it's so directly portrayed here.

Conversely, I've been looking at this card and working backwards so to speak - What if the Gay Tarot 2 of Cups were to be interpreted in terms of relating to someone else ? A purely subjective interpretation, yes, but I found it helpful in that I so often project my own issues onto other people, for better or for worse. Often I've reacted against someone and later discovered that I don't actually dislike them - rather I'm uncomfortable with something about them which reminds me of the parts of myself I can't expect.

What a great card - It's turned all my established pre - conceptions on their head !

Chris. xx

I couldn't have said it better myself!

As one who is very rooted in the traditional RWS symbolism, I, too, balked momentarily at such a radical reinterpretation, only to realize that it was simply another way to look at the exact same principle-- to the deepending of both!

Your response was a perfect way of seeing both 2s of cups simultaneously.

I often read for clients who want very practical, direct answers to the everyday circumstances of their lives (some come weekly or even more frequently!), so it's less common for me to have the opportunity to focus a client's reading on their self-and spiritual development.

Having considered our discussions of the Devil in another thread, with this card I'm beginning to think that the Gay Tarot may be the perfect tool to use for those seeking self-understanding, as a contrast to the more event-oriented deck I have taken to using for more mundane questions. It almost makes we wish I had two Gay Tarots, one for men and one for women (but in all other respects forming a "matching set") and reserve them for more self-awareness-oriented readings.

Cool!

That idea was very far at the back of my mind and I don't think I would have pulled it out if you hadn't made me, Chris

But it's really good. Other people reflecting you and you having to connect with them- and with aspects of yourself in them... Now, the shadow which still startles me makes more sense, too: it is connecting you with the part of you which is in the other person, too. It could represent the darker sides as Chris referred to, the things you don't like in yourself and despise in others- or it could be just the unsconscious, the things that connect you without neither the one nor the other being aware of it. I think I'd have liked magic in this one: the hand reaching into the mirror But the shadow is enough, I think.

I still thought about recurring persons and remembered one: The Fool is coming back in the 10 of Wands. I will post them as a new thread tonight cause I don't have the deck at hand at the moment.

@Elentir: You said you have the Osho Zen, too. Maybe you could use that for women- I think it goes at least as deep into self-understanding as the Gay.

Yes, absolutely, Chris's interpretation of the card as someone trying to connect or communicate with another person, but instead projecting his own issues, is wonderfully valid. Telcontar and Elentir mentioned the Osho Zen, in fact there's a card like this in the Osho Zen (I think it's the 7 of Cups but I'm not sure), where a man and a woman are looking at each other but are seeing their own projections rather than the real person.

-- Lee

Relationship with Self vs. with Other

With the 2 of cups as an example of how a card traditionally referring to a relationship between two people can be modified to refer to a relationship with oneself, did you take other cards in the deck in a similar direction? I.e., is this a theme that's spread throughout the deck as a whole? (Obviously, some of the cards we've read about so far keep their orientation on the relationship between two people; the Moon, the Lovers, et al.)

A good question, I never thought of it that way. I don't have time now, but I'll take a look and report back to you tomorrow.

-- Lee

I'm looking forward to Lee's answer to this, it's an interesting point. Searching for a site that shows the Osho Zen 7 of Cups, I found http://www.angelpaths.com/decks/ohsozen/water/sevenofcups.html It's worth having a look, I think cause after all that has been said here, I think this card can deepen the understanding of Lee's Two of Cups.

-Without me wanting to turn this into an Osho Zen iscussion

Re: Relationship with Self vs. with Other

Elentir said:

With the 2 of cups as an example of how a card traditionally referring to a relationship between two people can be modified to refer to a relationship with oneself, did you take other cards in the deck in a similar direction? I.e., is this a theme that's spread throughout the deck as a whole?

Click to expand...

Okay, I've gone through the deck with this in mind, and I could find two cards which in the RWS show people interacting with each other and I changed it to a person or people not interacting (the 2 of Cups and the 10 of Coins). However, interestingly, there are 11 cards for which the opposite is true, that is, I've taken a card which did not show relationship and changed it to show people relating with each other: Protector (Empress), Wheel, Justice, Revelation (Tower), Moon, Sun, Sage of Cups, 8 of Cups, 4 of Cups, 6 of Wands, and 3 of Wands.

So it appears that the Gay Tarot is actually more relationship-oriented than traditional tarot.

-- Lee

Self vs. Other

Hmmm, interesting. All these variations on the "traditional" cards seem quite illuminating. I'm curious to see your treatment of the other cards you mention.

One problem I often have with the traditional 2 of cups meaning is remembering that it represents the formation of any emotional attachment, not exclusively romantic or sexual ones. That's tripped me up in readings before. I think the 2 of cups can indicate a new friendship or a "bonding experience" between any two people. But in any case, I really like how this card makes the point that you have to love yourself before you can truly love someone else.

Your remark about the Sage of Cups seems particularly interesting, as I don't think I've ever seen court cards that had more than just one person in it.

The 7 of cups from the Osho Zen is a great representation of the mirror thing we were discussing earlier, as well as projection, which is the title of the card. This has made me want to take another look at that deck, too, and see if it's something I might integrate into my practice. SO MANY clients, though, come in looking for more event-oriented, practical advice. Sometimes it's frustrating, but it's been a worthwhile challenge to master as well; it requires a certain immediacy and familiarity with the cards that I think is otherwise difficult to acquire.

Some time ago, the store I work through tried to set up tarot readings every Friday night at an local gay dance club/bar. I did it a few times, but I think they eventually phased it out. Perhaps with this deck I can look into that venue once again.

Re: Self vs. Other

Elentir said:

Your remark about the Sage of Cups seems particularly interesting, as I don't think I've ever seen court cards that had more than just one person in it.

Click to expand...

You can see the Sage of Cups if you go to this interview and scroll down, it's the fifth card scan down:

http://www.tarotgarden.com/library/articles/bursteninterview.html

I guess maybe we should start a new thread for the Sage of Cups...

-- Lee