Darth MI
TAROT SUCKS!
Does Traditional Astrology have methods to remedy troubled charts eg amulets,chants?
Ronia
Do you really believe that a piece of wood, stone or a text read by someone else is capable to relief you from your inner struggles? Really? I come from a culture where such things are merchandise and you can certainly get whatever your heart desire, accompanied by all kinds of readings, including astrological, and no, we all know it's not going to help. What it does, at best and depending on the person's inner power and will, is to motivate inner change. At best. In most cases nothing happens but the person, willing to see change, starts to notice even the smallest things and events around them thus convincing themselves it's all well. Now, if you turn to a person with vast knowledge and the supportive power, and then go through all s/he will ask you to do in order to strenghten *your own* abilities, then you can definitely change much of what has been dragging you down or pulling you backwards. You can also meet such a person who can make for you an amulet and it will work for a while, actually for as long as the person who made it wishes, usually not long but long enough to convince you to go to them again. It's a/desire to help people for real and strenghten them or b/business. Faith is a powerful tool. The most powerful together with Love. If you have these two, you absolutely don't need any pieces of anything to carry around with you. There are also tools you can use yourself without any harm. This is all my opinion about any astrological or religious or other kind of movement, philosophy or teaching in the world that claims it has "remedies". The only remedies are inside us.
P.S. What is a very troubled chart? Most charts have their challenges. What makes it a "very troubled" one?
P.S. What is a very troubled chart? Most charts have their challenges. What makes it a "very troubled" one?
Darth MI
TAROT SUCKS!
Minderwiz
Firstly, it's worth pointing out that the Western Tradition is broken. Indeed it has more than one break - between the Hellenistic period and the Arabic and the Medieval periods and between the Seventeenth Century and the late Nineteenth Century. Those breaks were not complete - Astrology still continued but not at the 'academic' or 'theoretical level', so we don't know much about what went on during them.
We do know that a lot of texts were destroyed and that we have only a portion of what we do have that have been translated. So my answer to the original question must be a diffident one.
I've not come across any direct texts that make use of amulets or a form of incantation or 'prayers' as a means of dealing with perceived astrological problems. However Western Astrology was the underpinning of Western medical practice from Hellenistic times to the seventeenth century (apart from a break in the West between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Crusades, when it re-entered medieval Europe, thanks to contact with the Arab world).
You can most easily access the links through reading Nicholas Culpepper, Richard Saunders or William Lilly. Diseases were diagnosed on the basis of Astrology and remedies were chosen based on their astrological properties.
At a more modern level, I've seen a similar approach to Bach Flower Remedies, and also the use of precious stones - See Oscar Hoffman's Classical Medical Astrology. And, of course, you will see that this medical approach continues today through Astrologers such as Wanda Sellar.
Whilst the approach of the Christian Church would have greatly discouraged the use of amulets, etc I don't have any reason to doubt that at 'street level' these were used. Even at the 'higher levels' the use of relics and belief that the bones of saints could bring miracles may have influenced some people, but we just don't have evidence in sufficient quantities to make and definitive judgements about the practice of Astrology. For the Christian Church, the relationship with Astrology was rather well balanced. They accepted the medical side but they did not accept the judicial side - predictions of the future seemed to deny the ability of God to exercise grace and indeed to replace the Clergy with Astrologers. So you will find that Astrologers tended to be very cautious, unless they were employed by a rich noble or a king.
We do know that a lot of texts were destroyed and that we have only a portion of what we do have that have been translated. So my answer to the original question must be a diffident one.
I've not come across any direct texts that make use of amulets or a form of incantation or 'prayers' as a means of dealing with perceived astrological problems. However Western Astrology was the underpinning of Western medical practice from Hellenistic times to the seventeenth century (apart from a break in the West between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Crusades, when it re-entered medieval Europe, thanks to contact with the Arab world).
You can most easily access the links through reading Nicholas Culpepper, Richard Saunders or William Lilly. Diseases were diagnosed on the basis of Astrology and remedies were chosen based on their astrological properties.
At a more modern level, I've seen a similar approach to Bach Flower Remedies, and also the use of precious stones - See Oscar Hoffman's Classical Medical Astrology. And, of course, you will see that this medical approach continues today through Astrologers such as Wanda Sellar.
Whilst the approach of the Christian Church would have greatly discouraged the use of amulets, etc I don't have any reason to doubt that at 'street level' these were used. Even at the 'higher levels' the use of relics and belief that the bones of saints could bring miracles may have influenced some people, but we just don't have evidence in sufficient quantities to make and definitive judgements about the practice of Astrology. For the Christian Church, the relationship with Astrology was rather well balanced. They accepted the medical side but they did not accept the judicial side - predictions of the future seemed to deny the ability of God to exercise grace and indeed to replace the Clergy with Astrologers. So you will find that Astrologers tended to be very cautious, unless they were employed by a rich noble or a king.
zhan.thay
Well, Barkey, you haven't left much doubt about where you're coming from have you. I think you've been a bit unfair to Ronia but I'm sure she can defend herself and her points of view.
My position is not that anyone's chart should be condemned as "troubled" or afflicted or any such thing but that a birth chart holds all the potentials of what that person may become if they are able to use the energies wisely. Like Buddhism, I believe that there is a way out of suffering and that there are many methods that may be used, such as astrology, tarot, I Ching, religion, martial arts, athletics and many other arenas of human endeavour. Personally, I have very little athletic ability so that is not a valid path for me. I do however have long-standing interests in humanistic astrology, tarot, Tibetan Buddhism and Tai Chi. My mala is not for me a religious object but a means to count how many mantras I have chanted. I couldn't say I have much in the way of amulets either because I don't believe they hold any inherent power or that they can be imbued with power
I don't believe that I have achieved mastery in anything I've attempted but I will offer some advice to a person IF I think it might benefit them. It is entirely their choice if they decide to use it. In the same way, if I read a chart for someone, I don't expect that everything I say will be accepted by them as being applicable to how they see themselves and the people who see themselves as "troubled" are generally sensitive people who are confused as to which way to go with their life. People who traditionally are seen as "troubled" in conventional terms are, in my experience, usually too arrogant or scornful to want anything from an astrologer. In fact they may even feel suspicious or paranoid that the astrologer knows more about them than they know themselves and may even feel threatened by that. Suggesting that such a person should chant or keep an amulet could lead to dangerous circumstances, heavy derision or if they have some decorum they might just say "Nah mate, not for me. Thanks all the same."
As for answers to your original question, "Does Traditional Astrology have methods to remedy troubled charts eg amulets, chants?" other people will have to answer as I don't follow the path of Traditional Astrology but I am still investigating my birthchart after almost 40 years as a tool to understand where I'm coming from and for me that study dovetails nicely with Tai Chi, Hatha Yoga and Mahamudra meditation.
It would be sheer arrogance on my part if I expected everyone else to follow the same paths I have.
My position is not that anyone's chart should be condemned as "troubled" or afflicted or any such thing but that a birth chart holds all the potentials of what that person may become if they are able to use the energies wisely. Like Buddhism, I believe that there is a way out of suffering and that there are many methods that may be used, such as astrology, tarot, I Ching, religion, martial arts, athletics and many other arenas of human endeavour. Personally, I have very little athletic ability so that is not a valid path for me. I do however have long-standing interests in humanistic astrology, tarot, Tibetan Buddhism and Tai Chi. My mala is not for me a religious object but a means to count how many mantras I have chanted. I couldn't say I have much in the way of amulets either because I don't believe they hold any inherent power or that they can be imbued with power
I don't believe that I have achieved mastery in anything I've attempted but I will offer some advice to a person IF I think it might benefit them. It is entirely their choice if they decide to use it. In the same way, if I read a chart for someone, I don't expect that everything I say will be accepted by them as being applicable to how they see themselves and the people who see themselves as "troubled" are generally sensitive people who are confused as to which way to go with their life. People who traditionally are seen as "troubled" in conventional terms are, in my experience, usually too arrogant or scornful to want anything from an astrologer. In fact they may even feel suspicious or paranoid that the astrologer knows more about them than they know themselves and may even feel threatened by that. Suggesting that such a person should chant or keep an amulet could lead to dangerous circumstances, heavy derision or if they have some decorum they might just say "Nah mate, not for me. Thanks all the same."
I am full in agreement with what you say here and with this:
but I don't think they work for everyone and I think very few people in western society would have the patience to read holy scriptures either let alone apply the moral principles in their own lives.
As for answers to your original question, "Does Traditional Astrology have methods to remedy troubled charts eg amulets, chants?" other people will have to answer as I don't follow the path of Traditional Astrology but I am still investigating my birthchart after almost 40 years as a tool to understand where I'm coming from and for me that study dovetails nicely with Tai Chi, Hatha Yoga and Mahamudra meditation.
It would be sheer arrogance on my part if I expected everyone else to follow the same paths I have.
Darth MI
TAROT SUCKS
Ronia
I am religious. And that is why I wrote what I wrote. Indeed, I not nonly believe but I *know*. Very unfortunate Barkey, you didn't understand what I said here. A person who has Faith and Love does not need amulets, most people just don't have either of these for real. But no amulet will ever help if the change doesn't start on the inside which is why I wrote that remedies are inside us. And being religious doesn't mean I don't work with energy. The Bible itself is a highly mystical book full with clues about work with energy and being able to change your reality *yourself*. Not through amulets. Every chart I've ever seen holds both promises and challenges, including the danger to become a socially unacceptable person, one way or another. I believe eaxh one of us is also given the inner power to deal with this if we will. Sometimes it takes years and people are generally lazy creatures. Sometimes it's easier to surrender to the negative instead of fight it. But the amulets will never turn a killer into a kitten. Their inner power may do it though. If they wish so.
P.S. Every person who is not only attending church on Sunday "because everyone goes" but truly believes, knows and understands the concept of Faith and Love I talked about simply because it is in every spiritual book ever written by men in the world. No matter if it's European, Asian or else. Which makes your comments to my writings a bit strange, Berkey. You should know what I'm saying and why amulets can only be the placibo but the healing comes from the inner power which comes namely from Faith and the expression and understanding of Love. By the way, Faith is not equal to religion and there are plnety of people who are not religious but believe in something that fits their understanding. Note that I am perfectly capable to make you as many amulets as you wish and they will even work for a few months.
I'm well educated on the matter but chose long ago to be honest.P.P.S. I dare say Tarot was not derived from astrology. Nor were any of the cards I use. As about meditation: one can use whatever one prefers to meditate on. Your house plants, your red cooking pot, the stain on the wall, whatever helps your mind relax and focus will do. Again, the truth of things comes from inside, it doesn't depend on any objects outside.
Minderwiz
The actual astrological roots came from mesopotamian origins, especially but not exclusively babylonian (chaldean) and partly from egyptian origins - the decans seem to be egyptian in origin.
Horoscopic Astrology (using charts based on an Ascendant) originated in or around Alexandria probably between 50 BCE and 50 AD (although this is not a cast iron dating). The originators were Greek speaking and had a background in Greek philosophy, especially (but again not exclusively) the then dominant philosophy of Stoicism.
Whilst the did refer to the planets as the 'star of... (Kronos/Zeus/Ares/Aphrodite/Hermes) from the several Hellenistic texts I've read none of them rooted the explanation of the nature of the planet in mythology. Indeed Hellenistic texts are far more 'mythology free' than modern psychological texts on Astrology. The use of mythology to underpin planetary meanings came with the need to rationalise and explain the outer planets and even then, really only into the twentieth century.
Whilst their are occasional references to religious issues in some writers this is by no means common and was in the form of asides, rather than an explanation of astrological meaning.
Barkey Foreman said:
If by 'psychological astrology today' you refer to the dominant version drawing heavily on Jung, the answer is obviously that they would have no understanding of it at all. You can't expect them too. Traditional Astrology does have a 'psychological component', though they would never have called it that but it's key direction is not to explain the mind but to predict likely events in the life of a person or country, or to find propitious times to do things, or to answer questions that troubled a person. It aimed to be 'objective' in that it treated the outside world as a distinct entity compared to the native of the chart.
I've not read many medieval texts, apart from the Arabic ones, and those certainly didn't try to deal with Christian ideas - but apart from an acknowledgement of Allah, they did not preach the Koran either. They seemed to be rooted in the later Hellenisitic ideas and developed and built on those. Incidentally they were not very complimentary to the 'Hindus', as they occasionally referenced Vedic Astrology.
William Lilly wrote a work called Christian Astrology, in which he makes very little reference to christianity at all. He used the title for political reasons, as the churches both Catholic and Protestant did not take kindly to anything that seemed 'heretical'. Jean Baptiste Morin's large opus Astrologia Gallica makes reference to specific church notables, but is free from taking a religious stand.
On the issue of the origins of Vedic Astrology. It's almost certain that some form of Astrology was derived from the Vedas. The issue though is the use of horoscopic charts in Jyotish and these almost certainly derive from the influence of a second century Hellenistic text that made its way to India. David Pingree shows by a philological analysis that many of the Sanskrit terms are directly taken from the Greek and have no meaning outside Astrology (though they do have wider meaning in Greek). From that he deduced that the original use of the terms was Greek and that the Sanskrit use came secondly - that is the Greek works predated the Sanskrit works. This is disputed by a number of Vedic Astrologers who try to find errors in Pingree. There are errors but not such that they invalidate his case. Jyotish is almost certainly a younger sibling of Hellenistic Astrology, though it has a 'genetic' differences.
That being said, I don't think there's a cultural link here. Indians took, used and adapted Hellenistic techniques in a Hindu environment.
As I have said elsewhere, Traditional Astrology, just like Modern Astrology had/has practitioners who are 'fatalistic', just as it has practitioners who give more weight to Free Will. Of the later tradition both Lilly and Morin are quite clear that action can be taken to avoid perceived problems (in natal charts or derived charts)
Barkey Foreman said:
I don't think there's any real evidence to suggest that Tarot is derived from Astrology. There's certainly a cultural dimension, in that Astrology was well known in medieval Europe but I don't think there was any conscious attempt to make Tarot into a branch of Astrology
I know there are those who look for a 'unified theory of divination' so to speak but as yet it's as unlikely as a unified theory of physics.
Darth MI
Found an article on Renaissance astrology.
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/astrologicaltalismanchoose.html
Looks like they do have talismans and amulets afterall! Could anyone verify the legimitacy of the info in the article above?I'm going to buy some but I want to make sure first as there is so much BS online in modern astrology online and they can't even agree on what is right. Traditional astrology is just being reconstructed I don't know whats correct and whats not.
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/astrologicaltalismanchoose.html
Looks like they do have talismans and amulets afterall! Could anyone verify the legimitacy of the info in the article above?I'm going to buy some but I want to make sure first as there is so much BS online in modern astrology online and they can't even agree on what is right. Traditional astrology is just being reconstructed I don't know whats correct and whats not.
Minderwiz
This site is trying to sell you something and so does not represent an independent appraisal. The cited authorities were and are best known as magicians and kabbalists but should not be ignored. They are relatively minor figures in the transmission of astrological ideas but major figures in the revival of hermetic magic,
What genuine link there is between these magicians and the product I am not able to say.
