A Challenge

Don't worry this was a challenge for me - though I'd appreciate some thoughts. It came up in a Professional Astrologers Group on another site but it's one that presents a challenge to the Traditional Approach.

The link I'm including is to the original chart not to the group and that chart was not set up as a challenge. Also please ignore any advertising on the site, but the link does give you the opportunity to read a brief bio of the native.

http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Robert_Wadlow

The link was posted by someone who said that this chart validated Uranus, and could not really be satisfactorily interpreted by traditional methods. The Chart has Aquarius rising and Uranus in the first house. He took Uranus as the ruler of Aquarius and took Uranus as symbolising his unusual appearance.

I want to use this chart as my 'celebrity' for the Hellenistic Astrology thread - so I'll include a link there but this might be of interest to non-Hellenistic practitioners and I'd love for one of them to give some input in a modern sense.

So the challenge thrown out was that a traditional approach just couldn't pick up any of the sophistication of a modern one, especially here with Uranus not just on the Ascendant but ruling it.

In my opinion, for a sickness, planets in the 12th are more telling and the 6th should be taken into consideration. The man had a tumor. I wouldn't exactly call this "unusual appearance". Same with any person who looks "different" due to medical reasons. Shouldn't that be all Asc, 6/12? I'd guess Jupiter may attribute to tumor but haven't looked at the chart.

I cannot see how using Uranus can be "non-traditional". Everything has to be discovered at some time or other. Using quadrant houses and directions was non-traditional for those trained on Dorotheus of Sidon.

I haven't looked at your example yet, but Firmicus's sole chart (Albinus) makes sense once you add the rising Uranus. Similarly, Mars–Pluto configurations have been identified as the "curse of the Stuarts" (Paul Wright: Astrology in Action).

Hello there everyone.

A long time member, I had to create a new user name because I couldn't gain access to my original one.

But I just wanted to chime in on this one.

My initial thoughts at first glance of this chart:

Using Uranus as the co-ruler of the Asc, I agree that it does seem to have an effect on the native's appearance, but I don't entirely agree that it has anything to do with an "unusual appearance".

I'm of the school of thought in Astrology that one of the things that Uranus rules is the nervous system. Being that Jupiter widely squares his Uranus, it would seem to put pressure on his endocrine system (which is interconnected and regulated by one's neuro-system) in a way that over-worked and over-expanded it. Thus, affecting his hormonal growth system.

Thus, the unusual appearance is a symptom of the underlying issue: an imbalance and an over expansion of his endocrine system - Jupiter sq Uranus.

I would hypothesize that he likely had a tremendous amount of nervous energy as well.

DavidMcCann said:

I cannot see how using Uranus can be "non-traditional". Everything has to be discovered at some time or other. Using quadrant houses and directions was non-traditional for those trained on Dorotheus of Sidon.

I haven't looked at your example yet, but Firmicus's sole chart (Albinus) makes sense once you add the rising Uranus. Similarly, Mars–Pluto configurations have been identified as the "curse of the Stuarts" (Paul Wright: Astrology in Action).

Click to expand...

One of the initial replies to the astrologer posting this challenge, was that many current traditional astrologers used the outers - it was the techniques/approach that differed. The response seemed to be that the chart could not be interpreted without Uranus and that the rather 'simple' techniques of Hellenistic and Medieval times could not show anything significant. The native gained fame and reputation, yet the traditional ruler Saturn was in detriment.

He clearly could not see any way in which a Hellenistic or Medieval system could identify both the person's fame and anything unusual or remarkable about his physical appearance (he was the tallest person ever recorded at well over 8 feet).

Actually I think quadrant houses probably predate Dorotheus, as they seem to be attributed to the Nechepso/Petosiris texts, in the sections on the Length of Life. They just weren't used for 'topical analysis' until towards the end of the Hellenistic period and then in conjunction with whole sign houses. It's not till after the ninth century that they begin to be used as stand alone house systems.

Venusian said:

Hello there everyone.

A long time member, I had to create a new user name because I couldn't gain access to my original one.

But I just wanted to chime in on this one.

My initial thoughts at first glance of this chart:

Using Uranus as the co-ruler of the Asc, I agree that it does seem to have an effect on the native's appearance, but I don't entirely agree that it has anything to do with an "unusual appearance".

Click to expand...

Well the native was the tallest person ever recorded so I think his appearance was definitely unusual. However that doesn't mean it has to be attributed to Uranus, or more properly that Uranus is the sole significator of his appearance. So I agree with your point LOL

Venusian said:

I'm of the school of thought in Astrology that one of the things that Uranus rules is the nervous system. Being that Jupiter widely squares his Uranus, it would seem to put pressure on his endocrine system (which is interconnected and regulated by one's neuro-system) in a way that over-worked and over-expanded it. Thus, affecting his hormonal growth system.

Thus, the unusual appearance is a symptom of the underlying issue: an imbalance and an over expansion of his endocrine system - Jupiter sq Uranus.

I would hypothesize that he likely had a tremendous amount of nervous energy as well.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. I wasn't proposing to go into the medical side here but we might end up coming back to this point because there are clearly health issues with someone who died aged 22.

A Hellenistic take

OK I'm denied using Uranus or any of the outers - simply the known planets and other objects known to Hellenistic writers. I'm also using a chart whose timing comes from 'memory', so it might not be accurate - an issue for both Modern and Traditional approaches.

There are two charts associated with my reading, the first is the Chart titled Robert Wadlow. In this chart I used Whole Sign Houses, the original and also the standard topical house system for the first 1,000 years of Horoscopic Astrology. Saturn is still the first house ruler as the whole of Aquarius becomes the first House. Saturn is in the seventh whole sign house, in Detriment in Leo and opposing the Ascendant. Saturn is the out of sect malefic and so is potentially the source of most harm to the native. Being also in Detriment adds to Saturn's malefic possibilities. Saturn therefore is a threat to life.

This shifts Mercury and Venus from the twelfth house into the first - both 'testify' to his life, mind, body and spirit.

Both are of interest here:

Mercury is the ruler of the Air Triplicity by day (I'll use the modern term here) and therefore has dignity by Triplicity and it's also in it's own decan). Not all Hellenistic Astrologers used the elements for signs by any means, so I'm not going to place much emphasis on Mercury's dignity. What is significant is that Mercury has just had a helical setting the day before the birth. That certainly would be taken as a very significant 'omen' related to the birth. Mercury is also opposed by Saturn by sign though there is Reception (again I'll use the later term as the Hellenistic Astrologers did not have a term for it, though they recognised it). Some of the malefic nature of Saturn through the opposition will be ameliorated, though not removed.

Venus is the benefic of sect. Being in the first, this is where Wadlow should experience the best of his life. This should be a significant life where things go well. However Venus is retrograde and also is opposed by Saturn. Venus is not a triplicity ruler for Air signs, so she does not have that dignity to fall back on, she is indeed without any essential dignity at all. Like Mercury, she is in an opposition to Saturn, though with reception - so Venus' possibility of bringing good things to this life is significantly reduced. Venus is also the ruler of the Lot of Fortune. The Lot is associated with the body and its health, and with what befalls it. The condition of Venus thus testifies to a difficult life twice, once through it's position of some debility in the first house and again through it's rulership of the Lot relating to life and health. The Lot is in conjunction with Mars, the malefic of sect. Being in sect, Mars is likely to be neutral to malefic in nature, though here Mars is both Retrograde and in Detriment, so the affect is going to be malefic, not neutral. Mars represents another threat to the life of Wadlow.

My feeling is that if it were not for the Reception, this chart would show a potential death in infancy or childhood. Even with the Reception, this is likely to be a relatively short life.

The Heavenly Stars Proclaim....

Before getting into the remaining planets and placements, there's two significations of fame to consider. Both Lights, the Sun and the Moon are in close conjunction to important stars which proclaim the fame of the native.

The Moon, the Sect Light is conjunct Procyon - which is seen as portending fame and good fortune (other things being equal)

The Sun, the Light out of Sect is conjunct Fomalhaut, the Royal Star of Persia. This too promises Fame and success but at a risk - the native may have a great fall.

With both Lights in conjunction to stars clearly signalling the birth of a famous person, I think we have established that this will be a person of very great significance but with serious problems relating to health and survival.

Minderwiz said:

Well the native was the tallest person ever recorded so I think his appearance was definitely unusual. However that doesn't mean it has to be attributed to Uranus, or more properly that Uranus is the sole significator of his appearance. So I agree with your point LOL

That's interesting. I wasn't proposing to go into the medical side here but we might end up coming back to this point because there are clearly health issues with someone who died aged 22.

Click to expand...

Right, I understand.

Being that over-expansion of hormonal production of the endocrine system is what caused this gentleman to continuously grow until the day of his death, I can clearly see that over-expansion in his Jupiter-Uranus square, with Uranus co-ruling his ascendant.

Venusian said:

Thus, the unusual appearance is a symptom of the underlying issue: an imbalance and an over expansion of his endocrine system - Jupiter sq Uranus.

Click to expand...

So the point that I made was that his large physical frame at 400+ lbs, 7+ feet tall, his unusual appearance was a symptom of the over-expansion of his endocrine system, which seemed to never stop producing the growth hormone that caused his physical appearance to be unusual.

To me, without any further digging, Saturn retrograde in the 6th is just a problem. More so opposing Venus in the 12th. And in general, dynamic 6/12 with a heavy planet involved, especially retro is a bad sign. I've been looking in three charts recently, all belong to friends, all have Saturn in 5th retro, and all can't have children, for different reasons. One has no medical issues but something always goes wrong with partners. He's approaching 50 and starting to lose hope. Second has no medical issues but ehr partner does, she loves him, doesn't want to separate, he doesn't want to treat himself and argues with doctors. Third has medical issues and can't resolve them for now even with today's medicine. Three different stories but the result is the same. So, to me, Saturn retro has proven to be quite tough wherever he is in the chart. This man has him in the 6th, and if we take traditional rulership of Saturn over the Ascendant which happens to represent the overall well being of a person to me, including body, things don't look very well. Mars retro is conjunct the 8th cusp, not a good sign either, inconjunct the Sun which to me represents the person's vitality and self, even worse. However, based only on the natal chart, I doubt I'd have seen him dying young, I'd have seen the health issues. But I'm one of those who believes death is generally beyond our senses, in all kinds of divination and I don't try to predict it, ever.