Tarot/Kabbalah Connection (Another Thread)

Curtis Penfold

Here's a fresh thread to discuss this interesting topic.

Seriously, I read a bunch of the other Tarot/Kabbalah threads. They're always interesting, always enlightening.

Recognizing that there's an agreement here that there's no way of knowing FOR SURE that there's a Kabbalah/Tarot connection, does anybody have any evidence that might make us at least open to the possbility?
 

KingofCups

It doesn't matter if whomever first came up with the idea of the Tarot intended for there to be a relationship between the cards and the Hebrew letters (and then Qabalah by association), because the fact is that by the time the decks were standardized, their format of 22 major cards, 4 suits, and 56 minor cards (1-10 + 4 courts) was a perfect fit for a visual representation of it, and anyone familiar with Qabalah can see that right away.

Now, as to the accuracy of the various interpretations of the Qabalah and their applications to the cards, this is spotty at best. In my personal opinion, Paul Foster Case was the most accurate in this association that I have come across thus far. There are some things that "fit", and some that don't, but for the majority of the things that don't fit, there are reasons for them that are laid out in the Sefer Yetzirah itself.

The decks that have this affiliation in mind are, I believe, an attempt to synthesize the various Western occult traditions (Qabalah, alchemy, hermeticism) into one setting, a setting that goes beyond normal language and reaches into the depths of symbolism, which would be understood by generations to follow as long as they were well versed in those traditions. One thing to keep in mind is that the ancient form of logic, as transmitted through the Sefer Yetzirah, Pythagoras, and Hermeticism, are really the source of all modern numerology and astrology, which are considered important aspects of the cards even by many people who know nothing about Qabalah or alchemy. You can choose to ignore this source and make up your own associations, but that is far from the spirit of the original system of thought, which is definitely a system with clear, discernible logic.

These are murky waters and you can't take any one person's interpretation of them as "the truth" (this includes the SY, since it is but a vestige in writing of a previously living spiritual process), but, you can learn a lot from the cards if you know what the symbols are pointing towards.
 

venicebard

Curtis Penfold said:
Recognizing that there's an agreement here that there's no way of knowing FOR SURE that there's a Kabbalah/Tarot connection, does anybody have any evidence that might make us at least open to the possbility?
I present evidence of it till I'm 'blue in the face', but nobody seems the least bit interested (yet people think Crowley has credibility in the matter! go figure). Perhaps if I stay away from this thread henceforth, it will survive this one post of mine.

May the ancient Keltic god Luck be with you in your endeavor.
 

Curtis Penfold

venicebard said:
I present evidence of it till I'm 'blue in the face', but nobody seems the least bit interested (yet people think Crowley has credibility in the matter! go figure). Perhaps if I stay away from this thread henceforth, it will survive this one post of mine.

May the ancient Keltic god Luck be with you in your endeavor.

I noticed you put stuff up in other threads related to this subject. However, this thread is specifically for evidence and the validity of evidence. I would love for you to repost anything you've written about the subject.

(This thread has been here for a week, so it couldn't hurt).
 

Greg Stanton

venicebard said:
I present evidence of it till I'm 'blue in the face', but nobody seems the least bit interested (yet people think Crowley has credibility in the matter! go figure). Perhaps if I stay away from this thread henceforth, it will survive this one post of mine.

You've never presented EVIDENCE. You've only made statements like 40 pips represents this, and 16 court cards means that, and isn't it an interesting coincidence that in Kaballah 22=XYZ, etc. You've never once given us any actual proof that these numerical arrangements prove that the tarot had Kaballistic origins. In fact, no documentation exists that links the tarot to the Kaballah, or even the occult, until the 19th century -- which indicates to my mind that that was when the idea originated. Unless you can produce some documentation that dates from around the time Tarot was created (say 1400-1550) that shows conclusively that one was born of the other, you have nothing but interesting theories. Agrippa writes extensively about "Cabala" but never mentions the Tarot. Bruno, Dee, not one of the great occult minds from the Middle Ages or the Renaissance has anything to say on the subject. As far as I know, neither did the Jews of the period (and as far as I know, they still don't).

Frankly, it's frustrating. Your mind seems to have a different standard for what constitutes proof and what qualifies as subjective theory.

BTW, Crowley has absolutely no credibility in my book. He was a failure on every level of life except self-promotion. Couldn't earn money, didn't seem to be able to use his own "magickal" system to make things better for himself. He was a drug addict and he used other people for his own gain. Whatever little of his corpus has practical occult value was cribbed from the Golden Dawn, and the bulk of THAT was taken from Barrett (mistakes and all) and an arbitrary selection of material that was handy to Mathers and his cohorts. So we're together on that one. Crowley is for goths who never grew up, IMO.

I've also noticed this thread has been here for a week. No evidence yet. Just interesting observations and theories...
 

Curtis Penfold

I mean, four suits means little. People forget that spirituality effected every part of people's worldview at the time the Marseline's deck was made. Four elements, four corners of the world, all that stuff became part of pop culture.

I'm wondering if it's possible that "Kabbalah" could have such a strong influence on spirituality of that time that it came out in pop culture with the Tarot.

I mean, the Tarot obviously has spiritual symbolism, especially the Major Arcana. Celestial references, Biblical characters, all that stuff. It's not necessarily that they were passing secrets. It's just, spirituality and politics pretty much makes up the bulk of the pop conscious.
 

Greg Stanton

Kabbalah, or rather, a Christianized version of it, was known to a few scholars at the time, especially in Spain, but it was hardly part of European culture, and the general populace was most definitely not aware of its existence.

Most of the imagery has been traced to Christian neo-platonism and medieval mystery plays and pageants (see both Huson's and Place's books on tarot).

The four suits came from Persia and later evolved into the decks of playing cards we are familiar with today. I'm not convinced that the creators of these decks were thinking of the four elements (though they fit rather well, but not in the way the Golden Dawn has ascribed them). There MAY be 22 trumps, but players of the original game of Tarrocchi were probably more inclined to see them as 21 Trumps and a wild card.

I'm still dying for proof. Had enough speculation...
 

Curtis Penfold

Greg Stanton said:
Most of the imagery has been traced to Christian neo-platonism and medieval mystery plays and pageants (see both Huson's and Place's books on tarot).

I've been wanting to read the Mystical Origins of Tarot. I do find your comment very interesting, having read a neat article recently about religious medieval plays.

I'm wondering, though, if there's anything significant in the numerology of Tarot, something in those numbers that made them stick out. Like Phase 10 today. The number 10 has spiritual implications that may have made us associate in pop culture the number 10 with completion.

Greg Stanton said:
I'm still dying for proof. Had enough speculation...

Me, too. I would love somebody to present why it seems possible that Tarot could've been influenced by Kabbalah.
 

sapienza

Maybe no one has provided proof because there simply isn't any. I'm so far from being an expert it isn't even funny, but the connection just doesn't work for me. I can see how the tarot has a structure that allows Qabalah to be applied in a way that makes it seem like it was designed with Qabalah in mind. But we've already had that discussion in another thread and I think it was Greg who pointed out that Qabalah can be applied to just about anything, including Monopoly :)

Curtis, I'd definitely check out Huson's book. His theories make a lot of sense for me, although as with all tarot history writing, it's a good measure of fact and just as much speculation mixed in.

As for the numerology, isn't it just that certain number seem to have more meaning that others for people generally. Ten because of the fact we have ten fingers etc.

I personally doubt that tarot was influenced BY Qabalah but I never rule anything out completely. However, I remain to be convinced.
 

Greg Stanton

Curtis Penfold said:
I'm wondering, though, if there's anything significant in the numerology of Tarot, something in those numbers that made them stick out. Like Phase 10 today. The number 10 has spiritual implications that may have made us associate in pop culture the number 10 with completion.

For me, it's what you make of it. The number ten also has very base and physical implications as well. We've got ten fingers, ten toes, and most monetary systems were are are based on the number 10. I don't think the creators of the card game were thinking lofty thoughts, and the players of the game were probably gambling.

You know, there's suits in Mah Jong too, and the tiles are numbered 1-10. There's also four winds, three dragons, four seasons and four flowers. I'm sure a clever Qabbalist can come up with plenty of correspondences (which is what they do). Still doesn't prove Mah Jong was invented by a secret order attempting to preserve their sacred teachings for a future generation...