The Hanged Man--Visionary or Deluded?

Thirteen

Odin's Tree

It's a fascinating card.
:D very much so! Another view of the Hanged Man is the Odin myth, where he agreed to be hung upside down from a tree with no food or drink for nine days. On the ninth, he saw the runes down by the tree roots (the depths and origins of that tree), and these runes gave him all the world's wisdom. Which is why some cards show the Hanged Man with arms free and open, and coins (runes?) falling (sometimes from out of his pockets if the message is sacrificing worldly ambitions to gain spiritual understanding).

In this case, the Hanged Man doesn't start off as a revolutionary (traitor); he surrenders to the role. So, sometimes that is the Hanged Man's sacrifice. Surrendering himself, his life, his personal wants and needs for what is more "spiritual"--or for the greater good. He doesn't know when he does this what he'll gain, only that it must be done. That surrender/sacrifice puts him in the hanging position where, all unexpectedly, he gains wisdom, knowledge, and all esoteric secrets are revealed to him.
 

Thirteen

He is a rebel sort--very political--but sometimes I think he is not seeing things as they are, and may make mistakes later in life, as a result).
The Hanged Man is a water-element (sometimes viewed as Neptune) and this means that he is, for all intents and purposes, lost in visions and dreams and the esoteric. And emotions. Powerful, deep emotions. He doesn't, literally and figuratively, have his feet on the ground. He doesn't even have his head where it should be for logical, rational thought.

Rebels get this unique view of the world, how it is compared to what they've always thought it was and been told it was. They are, by the very natural of being rebels, consumed by such visions, and lost in the powerful emotions such visions give them. But that's kinda necessary, isn't it? Revolutions don't always need to happen. But if they do...they can't if the leaders aren't willing to sacrifice, fight, and hold to their viewpoints no matter what. Rebels are...delusional visionaries. Fanatics. :D They have to be. Because the other side isn't going to give way easily. A realist might give up. A rebel won't. His delusion is necessary to keep him fighting, and to make change possible.
 

Tabitha

The Hanged Man is a water-element (sometimes viewed as Neptune) and this means that he is, for all intents and purposes, lost in visions and dreams and the esoteric. And emotions. Powerful, deep emotions. He doesn't, literally and figuratively, have his feet on the ground. He doesn't even have his head where it should be for logical, rational thought.

Rebels get this unique view of the world, how it is compared to what they've always thought it was and been told it was. They are, by the very natural of being rebels, consumed by such visions, and lost in the powerful emotions such visions give them. But that's kinda necessary, isn't it? Revolutions don't always need to happen. But if they do...they can't if the leaders aren't willing to sacrifice, fight, and hold to their viewpoints no matter what. Rebels are...delusional visionaries. Fanatics. :D They have to be. Because the other side isn't going to give way easily. A realist might give up. A rebel won't. His delusion is necessary to keep him fighting, and to make change possible.

Reading your posts, I was thinking that The Hanged Man could be the subject of an epic novel or film--the mythology is so compelling, and the archetypes so powerful--it would make a fantastic story! I find this so fascinating, and it actually has helped me to understand my young revolutionary better. I worry about him so much, his intractable sense of purpose and unyielding belief in social and political justice. This is a hard path. It's interesting, because what prompted me to read for him (I have never read his cards with him present--for some reason we don't do that) was that he was feeling lonely, wishing he had a girlfriend, all the usual teen stuff. Lots of girls like him, but he is waiting for that person who "gets" him. And so I did this CC spread, and asked about this. The 9th card, before the Hanged Man, was the 2 of cups reversed. So for me, this sense of political purpose, a bit of the "fanatic" (although he has a sense of humor about it all), may interfere with this normal teen stuff, romance, etc. (Or maybe the reading just addressed my own fears that this is the case). But now I will always think of the Hanged Man as "his" card. At least for now. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me.
 

tapasr_57772aeb7

It was Odin who hung from the World Tree, Yggdrasil in order to gain wisdom, which required Him to sacrifice an eye as payment. Sacrifice for wisdom. Wisdom has pain and suffering that accompany it.
 

Thirteen

Hanging vs. Eye Story

It was Odin who hung from the World Tree, Yggdrasil in order to gain wisdom, which required Him to sacrifice an eye as payment. Sacrifice for wisdom. Wisdom has pain and suffering that accompany it.
You're quite right about having to sacrifice for wisdom. However, those are two different Odin stories--very easy to confuse as they both involve the Well of Urd which is underneath the Yggdrasil. The hanging upside down from the tree without food/drink for nine days is one story. Edifying and correcting my original post on this: the World Tree grows out of the Well of Urd (remember: Hanged Man = Water card), where the Norns live. The Norns keep all secrets, including those of how to read and use the runes. When Odin hung over this well by the tree, and proved his mettle by suffering, the Runes floated up to the surface of the well (there among the roots of the tree) and he was able to read them. Thus gaining that knowledge.

The sacrifice of an eye involves Mimir (the "Rememberer"), guardian of that same Well of Urd. Odin asked for a draught from the well, and Mimir, knowing that such a drink would give the drinker all kinds of knowledge, demanded an eye in exchange. Odin removed one of his eyes and tossed it into the well. Where upon, Mimir filled up his horn with the well's waters and gave it to Odin to drink.
 

Skysteel

You're quite right about having to sacrifice for wisdom. However, those are two different Odin stories--very easy to confuse as they both involve the Well of Urd. The hanging upside down from the tree without food/drink for nine days is one story. Edifying and correcting my original post on this: the World Tree grows out of the Well of Urd (remember: Hanged Man = Water card), where the Norns live. The Norns keep all secrets, including those of how to read and use the runes. When Odin hung over this well by the tree, and proved his mettle by suffering, the Runes floated up to the surface of the well and he was able to read them. Thus gaining that knowledge.

The sacrifice of an eye involves Mimir (the "Rememberer"), guardian of that same Well of Urd. Odin asked for a draught from the well, and Mimir, knowing that such a drink would give the drinker all kinds of knowledge, demanded an eye in exchange. Odin removed one of his eyes and tossed it into the well. Where upon, Mimir filled up his horn with the well's waters and gave it to Odin to drink.

Thanks, Thirteen. Does the hanging upside down from the tree story take place before or after the sacrifice of an eye story?
 

Thirteen

Thanks, Thirteen. Does the hanging upside down from the tree story take place before or after the sacrifice of an eye story?
Heh. Well, according to what I'm seeing using the google-machine, it's a toss-up :D One site says that "on one occasion" and names the runes then, "on another occasion" and names the eye (indicating the runes came first). Another site says that the eye came first and Odin, essentially, went back for more with the runes.

I think we're at the point where we need someone more expert in Norse tales than a noob like me :)

We should also note that in some versions of the hanging story, Odin is hanging by the neck, not the foot. Though how he could see down into the well with a rope around his neck I've no idea. Hanging upside down makes more sense if you want to look down...but I'm not a nose god so what do I know :joke:
 

Skysteel

Heh. Well, according to what I'm seeing using the google-machine, it's a toss-up :D One site says that "on one occasion" and names the runes then, "on another occasion" and names the eye (indicating the runes came first). Another site says that the eye came first and Odin, essentially, went back for more with the runes.

I think we're at the point where we need someone more expert in Norse tales than a noob like me :)

We should also note that in some versions of the hanging story, Odin is hanging by the neck, not the foot. Though how he could see down into the well with a rope around his neck I've no idea. Hanging upside down makes more sense if you want to look down...but I'm not a nose god so what do I know :joke:

Thank you. :) I couldn't unearth anything at all with my Google-fu. I guess there's a lesson about expecting Odin knowledge to be simple floating around somewhere... :joke:
 

Tabitha

The deep back story/mythology associated with this card (thanks to all the insights I've gotten here!) actually makes me re-think reading with TWU deck, although I adore the theme and the artwork so much. I just can't get all this from a hanging bat--the book associates the hanged bat (man) with "letting go," and "sacrifice"--this seems to have much less depth than the RWS Hanged Man and its variants (which I guess we are implicitly discussing here). I may return to a more traditional deck for a bit--at least until I learn more.
 

Thirteen

Bat as Hanged Man's "Spirit Animal"?

I just can't get all this from a hanging bat--the book associates the hanged bat (man) with "letting go," and "sacrifice"--this seems to have much less depth than the RWS Hanged Man and its variants (which I guess we are implicitly discussing here).
Don't give up on the bat! :D Bats, like, well, a traitor: very misunderstood. They are "upside-down," coming out at night rather than during the day, resting upside down rather than right side up (like other winged creatures). This makes them "unconventional" and "rebels" right? It also connects them to the Moon and all the watery emotional stuff that goes with the Moon even though they are creatures of the air (flying) and earth (living in caves).

Some Shamans see the Bat as flying between worlds—which is what the Hanged Man essentially is doing while upside down. Remember that the Hanged Man is not supposed to remain in that position. He goes into it for spiritual reasons and gains insight while in it. This is why the card often indicates a pause or waiting period, a "rest" even. The Hanged Man is not being passive, he's actively absorbing what he's seeing and understanding. But he is "between worlds" at that moment. Meaning "inactive" in ours. However, that pause isn't going to last forever. He's going to come out of it, right himself, and use what he's learned. (That's the whole point, right? To bring that info back to the world.) In fact, there is an element to the Hanged Man that going upside-down is like becoming a babe in the womb again so that he can be "reborn" anew.

Thus, as the Hanged Man "flies" between worlds while upside down, the Bat "literally" does so as well, through the night (and in magical terms, to the spirit world). And because the Bats hang upside down when at rest, they were seen as symbols of rebirth (again, in some cultures), akin to a babe in the womb (Bat in a cave). Just like the Hanged Man.

But wait! There's more: Bats actually aren't blind; they've great vision in the light, and when it gets dark, they've echolocation. Meaning you can't fool a Bat even when you turn off the lights. That's very Hanged Man. He is someone who was fooled while upright...but now can see what everyone is missing. He is no longer fooled. Not only can the Bat "see" what others do not (as the Hanged Man does) but he also hears what others do not.

So, agreed, there isn't nearly as much literal sacrifice in image of the Bat as compared to the man actually hanging upside down...but the Bat is certainly the Hanged Man's "spirit animal."

For more on this, check out the Wild Unknown Study group's Hanged Man discussion here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=204491