Most Popular Decks in France & Italy pre-1950?

Question for the historians here, especially Europeans:

Which Tarot decks were most in circulation in France and Italy in the first half of the 20th century?

If someone was known to have been a Tarot reader in this time, which decks would be the most likely for them to have used?

Especially pre-WWII.

I don't know, it's not my topic.

But I would look in Kaplan, Tarot Encyclopedia III, for this question.

Also you can check http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM

In the country overview you've some research possibilities.


Welcome to the forum.

The Tarot decks from the Publication house Grimaud or Chartier, Marteau et Boudin (now France Cartes) were available and sold in France in the first half of the XXth century:
. Ancien Tarot de Marseille (it was named Tarot Italien at the beginning of the century)
(see also: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491)
. Grand Etteilla (http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/album/83/Etteilla_1_-_Grimaud)
. Tarot astrologique de Muchery (http://www.tarotgarden.com/database...ob&tgdbsearchstring=&booleanopt=&pageenter=18)

Not from Grimaud:
. Oswald Wirth Tarot (http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/album/97/Oswald_Wirth_Tarot)

And of course the non-divinatory decks used for the Card game "Tarot" (again by Grimaud or Chartier, Marteau et Boudin)
. Le Tarot Nouveau (www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=112119)
. Tarot Chinois (also called Allemand à deux tetes) (same thread as above, post 2)
. Tarot Francais des Fleurs (http://www.ftarot.info/divers/divers.html)

Best regards

hi,

here in piedmont we used to play with the tarocco piemontese (the one with double figures).
As for cardmakers I would say Armanino and Viassone were the 2 most popular, but Beghi and Solesio were also used. They were mainly playing cards but I guess some people used those decks for divination too.
you can try searching armanino or viassone on ebay, they're quite common

Would they have been a French Free Mason or folkloric sort?

JDS said:

Question for the historians here, especially Europeans:

Which Tarot decks were most in circulation in France and Italy in the first half of the 20th century?

If someone was known to have been a Tarot reader in this time, which decks would be the most likely for them to have used?

Especially pre-WWII.

Click to expand...

-------------------------------------------------France circa 1890----------------
1. The first "folksy woodcut esoteric" French deck of the Marseille type is said to be the Epinal

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/epinal/

2. Grand Etteilla versions from Editions Delarue would have been in Lille, France and Paris from Blocquel/Blismon/Lismon and his son in law MF Delarue:

But the Etteilla patterns would have been known as:

Grand Etteilla/En Livre du Thoth - 1840, 1890
Grand Oracle Jeu de Dames - 1865, 1870
Jeu des Princesses - 1845, 1870, 1890

Papus, Waite and Robert McBride (Occult Encyclopedia) bemoaned the popularity of the "Etteilla" tarot patterns and the Egyptianized tarots.

Now there was a scarcity of French/Italian pattern tarots in 1899-1910 in Great Britain when the British Golden Dawn members wanted decks, so they exported decks from France or Italy and the makers seem to have included:

Arnoult (French bought out be Grimaud)

Armino, whose doublesided designs sometimes copied Lamperti of Milan, son in law of Ferdinando di Gumppenberg and Dotti, both cardmakers of of Milan:

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks04/d03297/d03297.htm

Modiano of Triest, whose designs included Sibilla oracles, tarocks, a fancy doublesided majors/courts novelty tarot known now as Alan Tarot and the renamed Cagliostro--they were first issued around 1910


Alan Tarot/Tarock:

http://pasteboardmasquerade.com/Reviews/orell.html

"Cagliostro" circa 1912:

http://www.learntarot.com/cadesc.htm

I have to be honest, I believe those who were likely card readers would have had odd Etteilla and Egyptian patterns that even today are outside of the 'norm'. Here are some names to google:

Papus Tarot (Le Tarot Divinitoire) - 1909, 1910

Falconnier Wegner Egyptian Tarot -1896

Eudes Picard (robert mcbride Occult Encyclopedia).

If you want to just deal with 22 majors, than it would have been Oswald Wirth, but it seems mostly French--although it seems the use of reading only the major arcana was a practice advocated by him.

Good luck, that is a start.

Correction on Oswald Wirth note

He may have been the first French advocate of majors only?

...to have been followed by Mathers in 1899 from Paris and the Waite in 1909?

I may be wrong, so will leave this space for later correction.

Huck said:

I don't know, it's not my topic.

But I would look in Kaplan, Tarot Encyclopedia III, for this question.

Also you can check http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM

In the country overview you've some research possibilities.


Welcome to the forum.

Click to expand...

Excellent! I've been so preoccupied with the TdM material in Vols. I and II that I have not extracted the material in Vols. III and IV yet. Thank You!

coredil said:

The Tarot decks from the Publication house Grimaud or Chartier, Marteau et Boudin (now France Cartes) were available and sold in France in the first half of the XXth century:
. Ancien Tarot de Marseille (it was named Tarot Italien at the beginning of the century)
(see also: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491)
. Grand Etteilla (http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/album/83/Etteilla_1_-_Grimaud)
. Tarot astrologique de Muchery (http://www.tarotgarden.com/database...ob&tgdbsearchstring=&booleanopt=&pageenter=18)

Not from Grimaud:
. Oswald Wirth Tarot (http://sumada.multiply.com/photos/album/97/Oswald_Wirth_Tarot)

And of course the non-divinatory decks used for the Card game "Tarot" (again by Grimaud or Chartier, Marteau et Boudin)
. Le Tarot Nouveau (www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=112119)
. Tarot Chinois (also called Allemand à deux tetes) (same thread as above, post 2)
. Tarot Francais des Fleurs (http://www.ftarot.info/divers/divers.html)

Best regards

Click to expand...

Excellent! Thank You very much for the leads/links!

Cerulean said:

-------------------------------------------------France circa 1890----------------
1. The first "folksy woodcut esoteric" French deck of the Marseille type is said to be the Epinal

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/epinal/

2. Grand Etteilla versions from Editions Delarue would have been in Lille, France and Paris from Blocquel/Blismon/Lismon and his son in law MF Delarue:

But the Etteilla patterns would have been known as:

Grand Etteilla/En Livre du Thoth - 1840, 1890
Grand Oracle Jeu de Dames - 1865, 1870
Jeu des Princesses - 1845, 1870, 1890

Papus, Waite and Robert McBride (Occult Encyclopedia) bemoaned the popularity of the "Etteilla" tarot patterns and the Egyptianized tarots.

Now there was a scarcity of French/Italian pattern tarots in 1899-1910 in Great Britain when the British Golden Dawn members wanted decks, so they exported decks from France or Italy and the makers seem to have included:

Arnoult (French bought out be Grimaud)

Armino, whose doublesided designs sometimes copied Lamperti of Milan, son in law of Ferdinando di Gumppenberg and Dotti, both cardmakers of of Milan:

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks04/d03297/d03297.htm

Modiano of Triest, whose designs included Sibilla oracles, tarocks, a fancy doublesided majors/courts novelty tarot known now as Alan Tarot and the renamed Cagliostro--they were first issued around 1910


Alan Tarot/Tarock:

http://pasteboardmasquerade.com/Reviews/orell.html

"Cagliostro" circa 1912:

http://www.learntarot.com/cadesc.htm

I have to be honest, I believe those who were likely card readers would have had odd Etteilla and Egyptian patterns that even today are outside of the 'norm'. Here are some names to google:

Papus Tarot (Le Tarot Divinitoire) - 1909, 1910

Falconnier Wegner Egyptian Tarot -1896

Eudes Picard (robert mcbride Occult Encyclopedia).

If you want to just deal with 22 majors, than it would have been Oswald Wirth, but it seems mostly French--although it seems the use of reading only the major arcana was a practice advocated by him.

Good luck, that is a start.

Click to expand...

Superb! The Mother Load. I'm familiar with most of these but was not certain which would have specifically been in vogue in this time period. I'm interested in general but have two specific historical references that I'd like to nail down and thought best to start with the general probabilities and work from there, which in the end I expect will be as good as it gets. This helps me very much. Thank you!

Cerulean said:

Armino, whose doublesided designs sometimes copied Lamperti of Milan, son in law of Ferdinando di Gumppenberg and Dotti, both cardmakers of of Milan:

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks04/d03297/d03297.htm

Click to expand...

hi cerulean

could you be more specific on that? Because I guess it's the other way round: the piedmontese pattern being copied by some milanese cardmaker...

then, as the divination tradition in piedmont predates the esoteric vogue (in etteilla he states that he learned how to read tarots from a piedmontese man) I suppose there were a lot of readers who used piedmontese double sided cards as reading tools. (you can still find old double sided decks with writings on them...)