Two Popes/Two Emperors?

kwaw

DoctorArcanus said:
Bishops do not usually wear crowns (Popes do). We recently discussed the case of Prince-Bishops, that wear a coronated-mitre (quite rare in iconography). I am not aware of images of St. Augustine wearing a crown.

Marco

Coronated mitres of prince-bishops can be found, perhaps more commonly (though still comparitively rare), in heraldry and imprese, especially of those warrior prince-bishops of the crusades. The relevance of the mitre in heraldry, and even more so in imprese, is often obscure to the point of being indecipherable [often purposely so, especially in imprese, the joy of decipherment considered being part of their 'charm' or 'allure']. There is one achievement I have seen with a moorish woman, in the lower part carrying a mitre, and at the helm wearing it, with a fleur de lyse on the opposite side [fleur de lyse were quite common in Muslim arms, along with the lion and eagle. They [the moors] called it 'frankish' so probably got it from the French or the merchants of Florence - as it was a symbol of the trinity to Christians it was a symbol of the three people of the book, Muslims, Christian and Jews, to the moors]. Why a 'Moorish' woman should be shown wearing a mitre I don't know. The rosette was also a common emblem of Muslim heraldry, in this case originating from the east, possibly China. {Here the colour and number of petals is significant - gold being superior to silver, 6 petals superior to 5, superior as in signifying higher in rank that is}. But I am beginning to veer off topic so I will stop here.

Kwaw
 

DoctorArcanus

Tiara and Mitre

Two frescos by Giotto (1297-1300) that might help clarify the difference between the Papal Tiara and the Mitre of the Bishops:

http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/assisi/upper/legend/scenes_2/franc17.jpg
St. Francis preaching before Honorius III. The Tiara in this frescos is almost identical to that we see in the Charles VI Pope: a single golden crown. Of course, this shape was common at the time of Giotto, but it is strange to see it in a XV Century tarot card (when the triple crown was common).

http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/assisi/upper/legend/scenes_1/franc07.jpg
The confirmation of the Rule (the Pope here is Innocent III). In this fresco there are both Mitres and the papal Tiara: the difference should be clear. In this case, the Tiara has no crown: its only difference from the Mitre is the conical, non-flat shape, without the two horns that can be clearly seen in the four Mitres.

Marco
 

Rosanne

You are right Marco- Honorius 111 has the Papal mitre on- I cannot really tell with Innocent 111- Charles V1 has the right behive shape Mitre, but no identifying three divisions. Of course I agree the Painter of the Charles V1 Card may have intended that the beehive Mitre to be a Papal Mitre, but if so, he forgot to show the three divisions on it. So as I said earlier it is not the shape that makes it a Papal Mitre- it is an indication of three tiers; they were not always elborate, sometimes just three circles of stitching- that is what tells the difference, not the shape. You can see that quite clearly on the Honorius Papal Mitre, with its etched divisions. So on the face of it, I stand by my statement that the Charles V1 card looks like a Bishops Mitre- not a Papal Mitre. Draw three circles around on it -like seams and -Voila! NO doubt he is a Pope. Thanks for posting the frescos- they are wonderful ~Rosanne
 

Bernice

What an eye-opener of thread! You have to read it from the start to appreciate the full import. Two Popes!.

Not the modern 'balanced' (male/female) viewpoint at all. Instead, these Popes are a depiction/reflection of the civil & religious conditions of those times & places.

And furthermore, although I have thought of the Pope as "The Letter of the Law', and the Papess as "The Spirit of the Law" - it seems I was only half-way there. It's the Papess who is the Letter, and the Pope who is the Spirit! Obvious really, the Papess has a book............. :grin: (And of course, the so-called Papess has little validity as a female - 'she's' a bloke!).

Gold-dust in these archives - gold-dust!

Bee :)
 

Bernice

I love this discussion. It seems that whosoever created another deck, re-created the images....

But getting back to the thread title - these Popes are a (delicious) puzzle yes, but what about the two Emperors? i.e. No Empress. I'm thinking that they were indeed both male.

Bee :)