Tarot of the Sephirot and Black Magic ??

Sulis

novenovembre said:
I honestly can't see how you feel that you can judge someone you don't know at all, and be so judgemental and dismissive when you know nothing about how many years he studied and what his sources are....and I already said he is not superstitious and takes this subject very seriously.
My comment about not answering my points was directed at Nisaba, who I have known for a while, and appreciate very much, but who sometimes has the habit of throwing in theories and comments which are dismissive of others, and by no means unquestionable, and then disappearing as if she was too superior to explain or discuss what she threw in....and I won't comment what she said about black or white magic further than I already have, because that would open a can of worms that could lead us on very dangerous ground, and could be seriously explosive.....
What I said about Crowley was not my friend's weird idea but what a lot of people say and write, and I never said, neither did he claim, that certain symbols are black magic because he says so, but because there is a literature about them....just like we all know about the swastika changing totally, according to which way it rotates, all symbols can belong to black or white magic, depending on how you use them.
Cloraspexa and senicar are discussing with huge intellectual honesty this subject I raised, and Grigori as well....the rest of the comments seem to me self-righteous indignation.
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Hi novenovembre,

I'm not being dismissive, I'm judging what you say your friend has said and that's the whole point of this thread; you asked for opinions on what your friend has said about The Tarot of the Sephiroth. Every single person who has replied here has disagreed with your friend.

If a friend of mine looked through a tarot deck and then told me that because the Wheel of Fortune was spinning clockwise it had something to do with black magic or that The Emperor had some sort of connection to 'the devil' because of the colour red or because he was wearing horns (or any of the other points your friend made), I would conclude that that person knows very little about the occult or about alchemy.. That isn't being judgemental or dismissive, that's judging him on what he's just said.
It takes very little research to discover that The Emperor is ruled by the sign of Aries and because of this is often depicted with lots of red on the card (just look at the RWS Emperor) or with goat's horns.
The same goes for the other points your friend made...
I'm sorry but saying that the flames on the Temperance card look like the flames of Hell rather than alchemical fire is just silly.. How do you tell the difference? How do you know what the flames of Hell even look like?
 

novenovembre

Sulis said:
Hi novenovembre,

I'm not being dismissive, I'm judging what you say your friend has said and that's the whole point of this thread; you asked for opinions on what your friend has said about The Tarot of the Sephiroth. Every single person who has replied here has disagreed with your friend.

If a friend of mine looked through a tarot deck and then told me that because the Wheel of Fortune was spinning clockwise it had something to do with black magic or that The Emperor had some sort of connection to 'the devil' because of the colour red or because he was wearing horns (or any of the other points your friend made), I would conclude that that person knows very little about the occult or about alchemy.. That isn't being judgemental or dismissive, that's judging him on what he's just said.
It takes very little research to discover that The Emperor is ruled by the sign of Aries and because of this is often depicted with lots of red on the card (just look at the RWS Emperor) or with goat's horns.
The same goes for the other points your friend made...
I'm sorry but saying that the flames on the Temperance card look like the flames of Hell rather than alchemical fire is just silly.. How do you tell the difference? How do you know what the flames of Hell even look like?
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I did make a point that was admittedly not what a scholar would say about how the images, the emperor in particular, look devilish or disturbing....and I am prepared to make an experiment and show the emperor of the sephirot to a number of people and ask instinctively what they think it represents ....that might be cheap, and it might not prove anything, but certainly it would prove that it triggers something in the Collective Unconscious....and that's the point I was making to Nisaba....The other points, more serious ones, about the wheel turning clockwise, cloraspexa and senical have admitted they hadn't noticed or didn't know their significance.....as far as Crowley and black magic goes, that was my input, and I am not saying it is True, but that the literature about it is endless....just by going on google and typing Alestair Crowley black magic/magician, so many results come up that it's impossible to count them....some are against this theory, some are in favour, but certainly it's an issue.....
Finally : my friend is not in hiding to avoid being stoned to death by aeclectic tarot members, and I didn't investigate his sources too much when this came out because I didn't imagine this popular riot....he's on a day out and will take part when he comes back....I took the liberty of inviting him, if that's OK....
 

Sulis

I think you could show certain tarot cards from any deck to 'the general public' and they'd say they looked like they were to do with black magic.. The RWS Devil or The Tower for instance.
What does 'looking devilish' or 'disturbing' even mean?

So what?

Are you suggesting that this particular deck is somehow Satanic? Is that what this thread is about?
You can find much more disturbing, dark looking decks out there if you try.. Just look through the Aeclectic deck list.

I think we've established from the many replies here that the imagery of The Tarot of the Sephiroth is no more concerned with black magic (whatever that is) than any other tarot deck.
 

novenovembre

Sulis said:
I think you could show certain tarot cards from any deck to 'the general public' and they'd say they looked like they were to do with black magic.. The RWS Devil or The Tower for instance.
What does 'looking devilish' or 'disturbing' even mean?

So what?

Are you suggesting that this particular deck is somehow Satanic? Is that what this thread is about?
You can find much more disturbing, dark looking decks out there if you try.. Just look through the Aeclectic deck list.

I think we've established from the many replies here that the imagery of The Tarot of the Sephiroth is no more concerned with black magic (whatever that is) than any other tarot deck.
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I disagree with you. None of the RW deck cards seems devilish to me, even the Devil, which of course, does have to be a bit devilish, is not as devilish as some of the sephirot cards....
I'm sure that there are even more disturbing decks out there, though I've personally never seen any....some are probably quite openly and deliberately so.....
And I don't think we've established anything, to be honest. Only that the 3 or 4 of you disagree, or had never thought about that....cloraspexa is open and willing to read about it, if the literature is available....
This thread was supposed to be about this peculiar-let's call it like that-symbolism of this tarot deck. So far, nobody has been able to prove that, eg, the wheel turning clockwise is NOT a black magic symbol, backing it up by the relevant literature. You keep asking for some kind of evidence that what my friend said was not his imagination, but I don't see that any of you have an alchemical or occultist culture strong enough to demonstrate the opposite, you are just saying you disagree. Based on what ?
The only comments that seem to me to have some academic foundation are, again, cloraspexa's. Which, by the way, are also the only ones which show an openness to continue the discussion constructively. I wonder why.
 

Sulis

OK so why do you think that The Wheel of Fortune turning in a clockwise (sunwise, deosil) direction is sign of black magic, you're asking everyone to 'prove' that it isn't but you haven't said anything at all that 'proves' that it is.

What do you even mean by the terms 'devilish' and 'black magic'?
 

Zephyros

While I thank you for your complements, try to see where Sulis and Nisaba are coming from. Not harping my own instrument, they both have knowledge and experience in these matters. All that anyone can do is answer a question to the best of their ability and previous experiences, and no one can prove beyond any doubt that something doesn't exist. If nisaba has been studying this kind of material since the seventies, I personally accept her opinion, regardless of my own. It might very well be that the deck has Satanic influences and is also influenced by black magic, used by some sect that a community of long-time occultists has never heard of, it's entirely possible. But as it stands, without further information, the answer is... no. If new information comes to light, I'll look at it.
 

novenovembre

Sulis said:
OK so why do you think that The Wheel of Fortune turning in a clockwise (sunwise, deosil) direction is sign of black magic, you're asking everyone to 'prove' that it isn't but you haven't said anything at all that 'proves' that it is.

What do you even mean by the terms 'devilish' and 'black magic'?
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I'm sorry, you're the one-you and someone else-who keep asking my friend to prove his competence-or his "credentials", as Nisaba put it-when you haven't proven yours....he told me that there are texts which talk about black symbolism, if you bear with me, as soon as he gets back I will get into more detail....but I didn't start this discussion claiming that I'm right, but to see if someone knew more about this....and again, apart from cloraspexa and senecal, who have understood what the game was supposed to be-exchanging academic knowledge and information, looking at the symbols together and trying to make sense of them, together-the rest of the comments were plainly insulting to my friend, calling him basically incompetent and superstitious, and attacking me, saying I was "buying wholesale" into his theories.....I don't even know why I'm bothering to comment on things said by someone who calls bindings and curses "white magic"....it's just hilarious....and you don't need to be a scholar to say that.....but what Nisaba probably meant was that, when she does it, it's white, when others do it, it's black...... Is that the definition of black magic you were looking for ? Would that be a fair one to you ?
 

Sulis

Novenovembre, I'm asking you what you think black magic is. You've started a thread asking if the symbolism of this deck is connected to black magic but you haven't said what you actually mean by black magic.

I don't classify magic by colour and I don't know of anyone who actually uses magic who does that, it's a force, like electricity, completely neutral - what is done with it is up to the person using it.
From what I can understand, I'd say that using magic to control others, take away their free will etc would be classified as black or dark magic by people who use that sort of terminology (and those people would not be people who know about the occult).

I have nothing to do with what Nisaba says or thinks, I'm asking you, what do you mean when you say things are 'devilish' or are when you use the term 'black magic'..

I'm not asking for any 'academic rigor' from your friend but he's made some pretty strong claims about the symbolism used in the deck and I'm wondering why he thinks the way he does because I've known many people involved with the occult and who use magic and I've never heard that a symbol of a wheel turning clockwise somehow means it's concerned with black magic.. He's also said that The Emperor being robed in red and wearing horns is somehow Satanic and that's just not the case at all so I can't see anything academic in that claim whatsoever.
 

novenovembre

Sulis said:
Novenovembre, I'm asking you what you think black magic is. You've started a thread asking if the symbolism of this deck is connected to black magic but you haven't said what you actually mean by black magic.

I don't classify magic by colour and I don't know of anyone who actually uses magic who does that, it's a force, like electricity, completely neutral - what is done with it is up to the person using it.
From what I can understand, I'd say that using magic to control others, take away their free will etc would be classified as black or dark magic by people who use that sort of terminology (and those people would not be people who know about the occult).

I have nothing to do with what Nisaba says or thinks, I'm asking you, what do you mean when you say things are 'devilish' or are when you use the term 'black magic'..

I'm not asking for any 'academic rigor' from your friend but he's made some pretty strong claims about the symbolism used in the deck and I'm wondering why he thinks the way he does because I've known many people involved with the occult and who use magic and I've never heard that a symbol of a wheel turning clockwise somehow means it's concerned with black magic.. He's also said that The Emperor being robed in red and wearing horns is somehow Satanic and that's just not the case at all so I can't see anything academic in that claim whatsoever.
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Black magic to me includes all rituals carried out for evil purposes, for selfish reasons, and by evoking demons or evil spirits, often with a link to Satanism or satanic practices. And yes, black magic to me is also anything that tries to interfere with other people's free will and/or to control them. That includes what is also called red magic, (love bindings, if you can call that love).And nobody can convince me that those are "neutral" things, "like electricity". When you bind to you someone because you want him/her for yourself, there's nothing "neutral" about that; even less when you curse someone.
The Emperor in that deck to me -and not just to me-looks like the devil, with or without the horns.
 

novenovembre

novenovembre said:
Have I met the Devil ? Not that I am aware of....but with all due respect, I think you know very well what I meant....classic, traditional iconography-which is probably crap to you, but nevertheless is evocative to 99 per cent of the population of certain concepts- works so that certain images awaken certain thoughts in people, much like the dog in the experiment hearing a bell and going to his bowl to eat....I think someone who uses a certain imagery, knows very well what he is evoking....just like the flames underneath Temperance, to answer senecar, I dare anyone to claim that, when they see flames like those, they wouldn't think of hell rather than alchemical fire of anything else....
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Devilish to me is more or less this, evoking a certain idea of the devil, based on popular iconography and the collective unconscious.
 
DV's Archangel Tarot - anyone got hold of it yet? Tarot of the Saints, is it out of print?