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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
For this issue of Livelihood I have used the second and tenth houses, any planets in them, and configurations to those planets and their rulers and configurations to them. Tenth House - contains Mercury and Lot of Fortune. (ruler Venus) and the Second contains no planets at all (ruler Saturn). I was going to discuss the Lots referred to but I will leave that to the next post with commentary.
I read it all, here is my two cents:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Rhetorius (c 500-600 CE)

On the tenth house:

Mercury in the MC, matutine (Morning Star) will indicate admirable and splendid actions for it will be, when they are aspected by one of the stars of sect, great rulers, or those entrusted with the affairs of cities or kingdoms or great men, trustworth, good, discriminating. But opposed by Mars they will be unsuccessful in advancement and they will have their share of flights.

There is a sextile from one of the planets of sect, Saturn, but also there is a square from Mars. The obvious question being whether Mars here has the same effect as through opposition. Mars is the out of sect malefic, so there may be trouble there.
I guess this is a statement not a question, so I'll leave it as it is. More so, I don't have anything to comment except that by nature my profession allows influence over the masses to a great extend (if one wants to use it this way).

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The Lot of Fortune in the tenth makes for very fortunate persons unless it or it's ruler are afflicted. The ruler of the ninth being in the MC makes for good fortune abroad. The Lot is squared by Mars. and sextiled by Saturn.

Mercury is the ruler of the ninth.
The ruler of the Lot of Fortune is Venus an she's not afflicted if I remember correctly? The part about the good fortune abroad sings true to me.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
On the Second House

... if a malefic beholds it by opposition or square or conjunction it signifies the loss of livelihood of the native.

Now Saturn opposes the second House from the eighth. Modern writers don't use aspects to empty houses but the Hellenisitic Astroloers did. Saturn however is the malefic of sect and might be better behaved than this. He goes on to say that if the second is the domicile (sign) of Saturn that such loss of livelihood is due to old people, or for the sake of land or inheritance, or the affairs of the dead or worthless people.
Hm... Loss of livelihood due to old people is only partially right, actually only on two occasions only because my bosses were older. For the sake of land or inheritance means to me to leave a job to live on inheritance or to deal with an own estate or similar, nothing like this has happened. However, I'd definitely prefer to have money and an own business, so if I had the chance I'd leave a job to pursue this. Dead or worthless people can not make me leave a job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Rhetorius makes reference to a Lot of Livelihiood (ASC+ Cusp of second - Lord 2)

This Lot actually falls in the middle of Cancer, the Seventh house of the chart - so is ruled by the Moon.
I have no idea about this one and how it affects me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
On Actions or Occupations.

The key planets are Mercury, Venus and Mars and the key places are the four angles, the succedent houses to them (2,11, 8, 5 and he also includes the sixth. plus the Lot of Fortune and the applicationof the Moon and the star making it's (helical?) rising seven days before or seven days after (Mercury for you). I take these to be in order of priority, so we look at the angles first. Mercury and Mars fall into the angles of the whole sign chart and thus indicate two possible careers, one in a Mercury occupation and one in a Mars.
If we take Mars and Mercury by their general meanings, this has played out a big deal. Mars for sports and Mercury for communicaton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Rhetorius makes reference to the Lot of Action - I can't find a definition in his work but the most likely one is that given by Dorotheus and cited by Paulus

ASC + Mars - Mercury

This Lot falls into early Libra and is ruled by Venus, it is in the tenth House.
Which probably explains why I was involved not in a pure sport but in an art including physical excellence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Firmicus Maternus (c 330 CE)

Moon associated with a malefic indicates a mediocre or obscure chart

The Moon is in the same sign as Mars, I'm not sure what he means by 'obscure'
Me neither. Mediocre doesn't sound very flattering. LOL

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Jupiter and Mercury in opposition attacks those who have had training in learned speech. The native has bad relations with with kings and powerful men because of those that envy them. They either suffer from the death of brothers (and sisters?) are alienated from brotherly affection by quarrels (again I assume this includes sisters) or encounter homicidal hatred from blood kin.
This sounds true considering PR as a training in learned speech (communications) and, yes, I'm not very fortunate in relations with authorities which I've always taken as a result of the Sun/Saturn square. On the other hand, there are always other authorities willing to help. They just kind of come and go quickly which doesn't allow for a long-term success. They feel threatened, I know that. My ambition is not liked generally.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The statements here seem to be quite extreme - but the issue of 'envy' arises again, as a possible reason for problems. I'd be interested in your take on the last part of this delineation - does it in any way reflect your life?
I don't have brothers or sisters and, as you already know, my relatives (all of them) are a bunch of very worthless people with whom I've cancelled any relations long time ago but not soon enough. They were just harmful to me, there is no other term to describe it.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
If Mars and Mercury are in square aspect and Mars holds the superior position (earlier in the zodiac) it weakens thenativewith constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, makes him the victim of evil rumours.

The statement that you saw as being a reasonable reflection in the previous posts.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Jupiter and Mars in square aspect with Jupiter holding the superior position indicate great fame, good reputation and high position. But they are never able to preserve their paternal inheritance; they will have chlidren late and suffer constant grief from accidents to children.

Again this seems extreme but it does indicate both success and loss.
My inheritance was spent by my relatives as I was too young to have any chance to do anything with it. As about my son... From an ancient point of view, I definitely had him late. I do not think focusing on future accidents is worthy though. I prefer to not do so.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Saturn trine Jupiter will be very good if both in good places or their own signs. But less so in other places and even less so if Mars is in a threatening aspect.

Saturn rules your Ascendant and so has a role to play. It also is in aspect to Mercury in the tenth, confirming the role.
Mars is square Jupiter though. Who will prevail? Saturn with the trine or Mars with the square?


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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Saturn square Sun, with Saturn on the right - demotion and loss of position also contraction of the body from muscular deformity.
Thankfully, my body is in a good shape and not deformed. Yet. Loss of position is again true, it happens periodically, not a permanent condition.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Saturn square Mercury with Saturn in the superior position indicates exile from the day of birth, they weaken all planning and thought processes, and hinder activities. The native will carry out adminstrative duties but in a position of subjection to another. They will suffer seriously from the attacks of the envious.

This also raises the issue of loss of position because of attacks from the envious. Exile was usually seen as being very negative, because you are no longer in your own city with your own relatives. You don't have any citizen rights abroad and you wont be supported if things go wrong. Foreign places were generally seen as bad and the home city was generally seen as good.
But Saturn sextiles my Mercury... What square is this about? On top of that, I'm absolutely sure my place and my happiness is abroad, I've never felt at home in my birth city and have always found my luck away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
[b]Vettius Valens (c 175 CE)

If the stars are in opposition(Mercury and Venus), they bring even greater slander, and men are at cross purposes and suffer ups and downs. If the stars are in opposition in the Bad Daimon, men will be crushed by the supreme authority, they will feel the effects o f mass insurrections, and they will have few brothers, or will have quarrels with their brothers, children, or relatives

I've cited this because it contains an extra qualification, compared to Firmicus. The second sentence refers to the 'Bad Daimon' that is the House of the Bad Spirit - the twelfth. So he is seeing the problems with family as being activated if the opposition includes the twelfth house. Yours does not.
Ups and downs is true. Brothers and sisters I don't have. Problems with children is something I believe happens to every parent and especially in our times today when I see children who are way ahead of their parents in terms of thinking. IMHO. On the other hand, one thing I know I do well (because I know what it means to not be done well) is being a mother of my son and overall we have much fewer quarrels than my friends have with their children. Astrology also helped me a lot because I knew much about my son when I saw his chart and was forewarned thus forearmed. I do know he's not going to be easy and I accept it. As about the 12th house, I take this as not referring to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post

The 11th Place <Relative to the Lot of > Fortune and its Influence on Prosperity. We have found the 11th Place <relative to the Lot> of Fortune to be the Place of Accomplishment, the bestower of property and goods, especially if benefics are in this Place or in aspect. ........Saturn when configured in its proper places makes men rulers of estates and property; if out of place and in the wrong sect it brings disaster, ruin, shipwreck, poverty, and debt.


The eleventh place from Fortune is Leo and in Leo is Saturn. Saturn is not in a good place but is in sect, so I'd see this in a weaker form, simply impeding the good from Saturn's placement.
So, it looks like neither the best placement nor the worse, 50/50 which basically equals zero... Debt is not my thing but poverty has been threatening me for a long time. However, I usually get the resources of someone else (8th house).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
The ruler of the Lot of Fortune is Venus an she's not afflicted if I remember correctly? The part about the good fortune abroad sings true to me.
Yes I'd take it that way too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Hm... Loss of livelihood due to old people is only partially right, actually only on two occasions only because my bosses were older. For the sake of land or inheritance means to me to leave a job to live on inheritance or to deal with an own estate or similar, nothing like this has happened. However, I'd definitely prefer to have money and an own business, so if I had the chance I'd leave a job to pursue this. Dead or worthless people can not make me leave a job.
For what it's worth, my understanding there was that in the reference to death, etc there was an issue over something left (inheritance) by a deceased person which underlay an argument, presumably about who gets what.

It doesn't have to apply as I often feel that two or more things are run together in these statements and possibly only one is relevant - a sort of example chain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I have no idea about this one and how it affects me.
That is something I intended for the next post


If we take Mars and Mercury by their general meanings, this has played out a big deal. Mars for sports and Mercury for communicaton.



Which probably explains why I was involved not in a pure sport but in an art including physical excellence.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Me neither. Mediocre doesn't sound very flattering. LOL
It simply means average or middling - though it does now have a flavour of below average, it's not what the word is derived from.

[qoute-Ronia]
This sounds true considering PR as a training in learned speech (communications) and, yes, I'm not very fortunate in relations with authorities which I've always taken as a result of the Sun/Saturn square. On the other hand, there are always other authorities willing to help. They just kind of come and go quickly which doesn't allow for a long-term success. They feel threatened, I know that. My ambition is not liked generally.[/quote]

It's odd how society still sees ambition as a good quality in men but not a desirable one for women.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I don't have brothers or sisters and, as you already know, my relatives (all of them) are a bunch of very worthless people with whom I've cancelled any relations long time ago but not soon enough. They were just harmful to me, there is no other term to describe it.
I think, the term 'brothers' here most likely covers 'family', starting from siblings and moving into cousins, and possibly aunts/uncles but not parents or grand parents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
My inheritance was spent by my relatives as I was too young to have any chance to do anything with it. As about my son... From an ancient point of view, I definitely had him late. I do not think focusing on future accidents is worthy though. I prefer to not do so.
Yes I agree you had your son late from an 'ancients' point of view but remember for them, that would significantly increase the risk to your health and indeed might increase the risk to his, especially at birth or in the early years. As it happens you have lived in countries with reasonably good health care, where that risk is minimised. My mother was about your current age when she had me. As I said in a previous post, in another country or another age, I might not have survived childbirth. So such statements, whilst stark, reflect the nature of the times in which they were made. I would not take it as being a serious prediction in your circumstances



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Mars is square Jupiter though. Who will prevail? Saturn with the trine or Mars with the square?
Squares were seen as stronger than trines, so Mars is likely to have the greater effect. The trine from Saturn will mitigate but not as much as say a trine from Venus.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Thankfully, my body is in a good shape and not deformed. Yet. Loss of position is again true, it happens periodically, not a permanent condition.
Again I take the original to be a 'compound' statement which should really contain the phrases 'such as' or 'examples might be'. A modern writer would do that, the Hellenistic Astrologers did not but it comes down to how these were perceived by people at the time. If the actually meant it to be a concatenation then it's a silly statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
But Saturn sextiles my Mercury... What square is this about? On top of that, I'm absolutely sure my place and my happiness is abroad, I've never felt at home in my birth city and have always found my luck away.
Yes it does, not sure how that one got through on the matter of exile, I did try to explain how the Classical world saw it, and why it carried negative connotations to them. There are examples of statements which do say that someone will do well in 'exile' but generally the native tend to need some good resources to start with. As we live in a different world now, it's either something to ignore or we have to rethink what is meant by being in 'exile'


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Ups and downs is true. Brothers and sisters I don't have. Problems with children is something I believe happens to every parent and especially in our times today when I see children who are way ahead of their parents in terms of thinking. IMHO. On the other hand, one thing I know I do well (because I know what it means to not be done well) is being a mother of my son and overall we have much fewer quarrels than my friends have with their children. Astrology also helped me a lot because I knew much about my son when I saw his chart and was forewarned thus forearmed. I do know he's not going to be easy and I accept it. As about the 12th house, I take this as not referring to me...
Yes the 12th house qualification puts a different complexion on the matter, as your twelfth is not involved. It seems that the authors make use of several texts that are taken as 'authoritative' but these are not always quoted in the same way. Most of these texts are no longer in existence, so we don't know what they actually said and therefore whether they are being quoted correctly. Some reconstruction can be done by comparative analysis and using two similar but not identical compilations suggests that what one says likely to be the case, is in doubt because of the second version which contains an added qualifying sentence. As I don't know what the original version was, I included both and will go from your feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
So, it looks like neither the best placement nor the worse, 50/50 which basically equals zero... Debt is not my thing but poverty has been threatening me for a long time. However, I usually get the resources of someone else (8th house).
It looks likely to be somewhere between the two extremes, which is bad news if you're a pessimist but good news if you're an optimist. Given your previous posts, I'd say it points to the issue of poverty being something that could be a real threat but that a disaster is not really on the cards. In that sense it describes your experiences and therefore is not equal to zero.

Thanks for your responses there. The impression I got from those statements is of a highly intellingent and able person who is proably too successful at her job not to pick up enemies and envious people. The question for me was really how much that translated into your experiences.

The family issues I left in because of your posts relating to the problems you have had with relatives. That seemed to fit, given that the term 'brothers' could probably be taken in a wider family context.
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Ronia Livelihood - 2


The Lots referred to previously are:

Fortune - Libra
Spirit - Aries
Livelihood -Cancer
Travel - Sagittarius

Starting with Fortune and Spirit. The ideal configuration of these two is that Spirit should be in the Tenth House relative to Fortune. In fact it's in the Seventh House relative to Fortune, which is probably the next best place, as it's angular.

Valens says:

If it is in its proper place or at another angle, the nativities will be as distinguished and vigorous as they can be under the circumstances.'

At first sight this appears to be damning with faint praise, but actually an angular relationship is best and this is probably the equal second best place to be. Of course Mars rules the Lot of Spirit, and Mars is the ruler of the Sect Light but is also the out of sect malefic. Mars is angular in the natal chart, so your basic way of trying to influence the world around you is Martial - through Mars characteristics, drive and ambition. Fortune is ruled by Venus, who is in the ninth, not a bad place compared to the Ascendant, but whereas Mars 'sees' his Lot, Venus is averse to hers. The Mars side might be seen as to the fore, but Venus gives a softening affect, and that might attract Fortune.

The Lot of Livelihood is ruled by the Moon. One obvious metaphor is that your Livelihood will be prone to phases, and changes, like the Moon. The Moon is dignifies in Cancer and aspects both Fortune and Spirit. She is with Mars in Cancer and sextiles Venus. Livelihood actually occupies the Tenth place relative to Fortune and in turn Spirit occupies the Tenth place relative to Spirit. Possibly that might mean that your Fortune is dominated by your need for a Livelihood and this in turn is dominated by the way you try and affect the course of events. Whilst that might be said of anyone, in your case I think those needs are quite crucial to your life. In the Seventh this might be taken as Livelihood is dependent on others (and possible the changeable moods of others).

The Lot of Travel is in Sagittarius. It's the twelfth place of the nativity but I think it's relationship to Fortune and Spirit are likely to be more important. It is sextile to the Lot of Fortune and is in a third House relationship. This is a cadent house relationship but the third House/Place itself has links with Travel.

The Lot of Travel is also trine to the Lot of Spirit in Aries. It's in a ninth House relationship, which again stresses travel but in this case overseas travel. That it trines the Fortune suggests that the decision to go abroad was not only taken freely but was seen as desirable. Indeed the sextile to Fortune suggests that 'abroad' will not be a bad place in terms of your health and what befalls you. Being abroad does seem to be something that you see and experience in a positive way, echoing the statements that you've made. Whether it is good for your long term livelihood, I'm not so sure, as the Lot of Travel and the Lot of Livelihood are averse to each other.

Travel is ruled by Jupiter and Jupiter is in a square relationship with the ruler of Livelihood, the Moon. That also seems to suggest that Travel and Livelihood are not naturally going to be productive, without overcoming difficulties and problems.

Jupiter is in the same Place as the Lot of Sprit, and it's possible this leads to you seeing Travel, especially overseas travel, as the first answer to problems - not as a 'running away' or 'exile' but because there are probably new opportunities to influence things in a new location. Jupiter and Mars (ruler of Spirit) are in a square aspect, as is Jupiter and the Moon. In both cases Jupiter is on the right hand side, which suggests Jupiter will win the debate about should I go or should I stay - finances and other circumstances permitting.

When we get to the next stage, the interesting thing will be to see how these Lots show up during your various Astrological periods and indeed whether Travel and Livelihood have significant periods of their own.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
For what it's worth, my understanding there was that in the reference to death, etc there was an issue over something left (inheritance) by a deceased person which underlay an argument, presumably about who gets what.
As usual, when an inheritance is coming, all relatives become quite anxious. LOL So, there were debates but I wasn’t involved due to my early age. Nor did I see anything from this inheritance.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
It's odd how society still sees ambition as a good quality in men but not a desirable one for women.
Some things never change.
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I think, the term 'brothers' here most likely covers 'family', starting from siblings and moving into cousins, and possibly aunts/uncles but not parents or grand parents
My biggest issues have been with a parent, only after that come the issues with the rest of the relatives.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Yes I agree you had your son late from an 'ancients' point of view but remember for them, that would significantly increase the risk to your health and indeed might increase the risk to his, especially at birth or in the early years.
True. I was referring to the prediction about being in grief related to future accidents. Such statements I let pass by my ears. 

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Squares were seen as stronger than trines, so Mars is likely to have the greater effect. The trine from Saturn will mitigate but not as much as say a trine from Venus.
OK. Since in a whole sign house chart Jupiter is angular in the fourth and is earlier in the chart, I hope he will be able to deal with Mars. LOL

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Yes it does, not sure how that one got through on the matter of exile, I did try to explain how the Classical world saw it, and why it carried negative connotations to them. There are examples of statements which do say that someone will do well in 'exile' but generally the native tend to need some good resources to start with. As we live in a different world now, it's either something to ignore or we have to rethink what is meant by being in 'exile'
It’s interesting that even in their times their most proclaimed warriors, kings, etc. were almost constantly abroad, even building new empires in foreign lands and leaving there for good… May be “exile” was seen as against the will of the person? Like being forced to leave the village/city as a punishment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Yes the 12th house qualification puts a different complexion on the matter, as your twelfth is not involved. It seems that the authors make use of several texts that are taken as 'authoritative' but these are not always quoted in the same way. Most of these texts are no longer in existence, so we don't know what they actually said and therefore whether they are being quoted correctly. Some reconstruction can be done by comparative analysis and using two similar but not identical compilations suggests that what one says likely to be the case, is in doubt because of the second version which contains an added qualifying sentence. As I don't know what the original version was, I included both and will go from your feelings.
Clear as mud.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
It looks likely to be somewhere between the two extremes, which is bad news if you're a pessimist but good news if you're an optimist. Given your previous posts, I'd say it points to the issue of poverty being something that could be a real threat but that a disaster is not really on the cards. In that sense it describes your experiences and therefore is not equal to zero.
I get it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Thanks for your responses there. The impression I got from those statements is of a highly intellingent and able person who is proably too successful at her job not to pick up enemies and envious people. The question for me was really how much that translated into your experiences.

The family issues I left in because of your posts relating to the problems you have had with relatives. That seemed to fit, given that the term 'brothers' could probably be taken in a wider family context.
Thank you. I found some answers in your analysis. Other answers remain hidden but when I go back over the thread and have more time to analyze it again, they may pop up… It’s kind of a mixture now as some answers I found here, others seem to remain in more modern look at the chart. It looks to me as both methods should be used…
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The Lots referred to previously are:

Fortune - Libra
Spirit - Aries
Livelihood -Cancer
Travel - Sagittarius

Starting with Fortune and Spirit. The ideal configuration of these two is that Spirit should be in the Tenth House relative to Fortune. In fact it's in the Seventh House relative to Fortune, which is probably the next best place, as it's angular.
So far, so good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Valens says:

If it is in its proper place or at another angle, the nativities will be as distinguished and vigorous as they can be under the circumstances.'

At first sight this appears to be damning with faint praise, but actually an angular relationship is best and this is probably the equal second best place to be. Of course Mars rules the Lot of Spirit, and Mars is the ruler of the Sect Light but is also the out of sect malefic. Mars is angular in the natal chart, so your basic way of trying to influence the world around you is Martial - through Mars characteristics, drive and ambition.
This is true about the Martian ways.
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Fortune is ruled by Venus, who is in the ninth, not a bad place compared to the Ascendant, but whereas Mars 'sees' his Lot, Venus is averse to hers. The Mars side might be seen as to the fore, but Venus gives a softening affect, and that might attract Fortune.
And this is a lesson I know I must learn – the softer approach.

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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The Lot of Livelihood is ruled by the Moon. One obvious metaphor is that your Livelihood will be prone to phases, and changes, like the Moon.
Also true as I wrote – the livelihood has been prone to extreme changes, ups and downs.
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The Moon is dignifies in Cancer and aspects both Fortune and Spirit. She is with Mars in Cancer and sextiles Venus.
Since the ruler of the Lot of Livelihood is dignified, does it bode well?
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Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Livelihood actually occupies the Tenth place relative to Fortune and in turn Spirit occupies the Tenth place relative to Spirit. Possibly that might mean that your Fortune is dominated by your need for a Livelihood and this in turn is dominated by the way you try and affect the course of events. Whilst that might be said of anyone, in your case I think those needs are quite crucial to your life. In the Seventh this might be taken as Livelihood is dependent on others (and possible the changeable moods of others).
As I consider the tenth as an achievement house, the place where we “get in the spotlight”, I think it may point at the fact that my career is important to me, I feel fortunate when I am at the top of it, it’s not only my livelihood, it’s more than that, I thrive there, my fortune depends on my career achievements which in turn depend on my actions (of course). As about the seventh, it seems like depending on others… But it also may refer to partnerships, I think. Both personal and business ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The Lot of Travel is in Sagittarius. It's the twelfth place of the nativity but I think it's relationship to Fortune and Spirit are likely to be more important. It is sextile to the Lot of Fortune and is in a third House relationship. This is a cadent house relationship but the third House/Place itself has links with Travel.
I actually find the fact the Lot of Travel is namely in Sagittarius (traditionally related to travel and exploration and adventure) as a good omen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
The Lot of Travel is also trine to the Lot of Spirit in Aries. It's in a ninth House relationship, which again stresses travel but in this case overseas travel. That it trines the Fortune suggests that the decision to go abroad was not only taken freely but was seen as desirable. Indeed the sextile to Fortune suggests that 'abroad' will not be a bad place in terms of your health and what befalls you. Being abroad does seem to be something that you see and experience in a positive way, echoing the statements that you've made. Whether it is good for your long term livelihood, I'm not so sure, as the Lot of Travel and the Lot of Livelihood are averse to each other.
Well, it hasn’t been worse in terms of career than staying where I was born, that’s for sure. On top of that, even if my career is going well at my home city, I feel depressed there, it’s suffocating me. I’m a wanderer by nature, I need change and to explore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Travel is ruled by Jupiter and Jupiter is in a square relationship with the ruler of Livelihood, the Moon. That also seems to suggest that Travel and Livelihood are not naturally going to be productive, without overcoming difficulties and problems.
Same as staying where I was born. I don’t see a difference, I don’t know if it’s reflected in the chart. My geographical position didn’t actually change the fact that my career suffered ups and downs, jealousy and envy. Those were accompanying me wherever I went. However, I've found that certain cities are much worse than others. The country doesn't matter so much. I actually checked a while ago the astromaps on Astro.com and (although I don't understand the lines completely), it seems the worst things over the past few years have happened close or on the Mars ruled lines (marked with MC) while some of the better times have been close or on lines ruled by Moon and/or Saturn (again marked with MC). My birth ciy is also on a Moon line but marked DC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Jupiter is in the same Place as the Lot of Sprit, and it's possible this leads to you seeing Travel, especially overseas travel, as the first answer to problems - not as a 'running away' or 'exile' but because there are probably new opportunities to influence things in a new location.
Travelling actually charges my optimism, another Jupiter side. When I travel I feel alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Jupiter and Mars (ruler of Spirit) are in a square aspect, as is Jupiter and the Moon. In both cases Jupiter is on the right hand side, which suggests Jupiter will win the debate about should I go or should I stay - finances and other circumstances permitting.
There hasn’t been a debate actually. LOL I do consider more carefully now as a parent because I’m travelling with my son but a debate like “should I/shouldn’t I” doesn’t exist, it’s only more careful planning. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
When we get to the next stage, the interesting thing will be to see how these Lots show up during your various Astrological periods and indeed whether Travel and Livelihood have significant periods of their own.
Indeed, I’m curious too!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
It’s interesting that even in their times their most proclaimed warriors, kings, etc. were almost constantly abroad, even building new empires in foreign lands and leaving there for good… May be “exile” was seen as against the will of the person? Like being forced to leave the village/city as a punishment?
Yes there is indeed a difference between being forced into exile or doing a bit of campaigning abroad or being sent on a mission abroad. That still didn't change the Greek perception that 'there's no place like home'. The exception is probably Alexander who spent his adult life abroad but who was eventually faced with a rebellion from his army, who wanted to go home and may or may not have been poisoned in Babylon, to produced that end. That view was beginning to change under the Roman Empire and travel abroad didn't carry the same risk of being eaten by wild dogs or attacked by robbers. I think your main point though is a good one and if this Lot is to be used it really needs a more modern spin put on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia

Clear as mud.
Both Valens and Firmicus are pesumed to be quoting from a common source - we no longer have that source so it's difficult to know what it said, other from their quotes.

Their quotes differ on this one. Firmicus does n't contain the reference to the twelfth House, Valens does. keep the reference and it doesn't apply to you. Delete the reference and it does.

I don't know what the original version was (and neither does anyone else) so I've included both versions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Thank you. I found some answers in your analysis. Other answers remain hidden but when I go back over the thread and have more time to analyze it again, they may pop up… It’s kind of a mixture now as some answers I found here, others seem to remain in more modern look at the chart. It looks to me as both methods should be used…
I don't see any reason for not having a modern take on the Hellenistic Astrologers and using what seems to fit. I'm trying to understand their approach methods and reasons, so I've put stuff in their own (translated) words. But this is the end of the Age of Aries, and Astrology was only just getting going in both the horoscopic and judicial modes. I hope at least some of the ensuing 2,000 years has produced something of note to add to it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
This is true about the Martian ways.

And this is a lesson I know I must learn – the softer approach.
Well even if the Hellenisitic Astrologers didn't hang out signs advertising counselling services, and took a fatalistic approach, that doesn't stop us from thinking about what they reveal and adopting a change strategy when we think it's appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Since the ruler of the Lot of Livelihood is dignified, does it bode well?
Well the Moon is dignified and Angular, both in the nativity and relative to Fortune, as well as sextiling Venus by Sign, so Yes I'd say it bodes well and Mars may detract but not destroy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
As I consider the tenth as an achievement house, the place where we “get in the spotlight”, I think it may point at the fact that my career is important to me, I feel fortunate when I am at the top of it, it’s not only my livelihood, it’s more than that, I thrive there, my fortune depends on my career achievements which in turn depend on my actions (of course). As about the seventh, it seems like depending on others… But it also may refer to partnerships, I think. Both personal and business ones.
Yes, the Lot of Action which I didn't take up, is also in Libra and therefore your tenth by Sign (and your ninth by house in a modern chart) So career is very much the dominant goal in your life (at least till the birth of your son - and I imagine remains a dominant goal in so far as you wish to provide the best for him).

I think your summation there helps a lot, the emphasis on not just the livelihood but also thriving. I'll remember that for future reference.

[quote=Ronia]
I’m a wanderer by nature, I need change and to explore.
[quote]

That's a good way of interpreting the trine/sectile relationships of Travel to Fortune and Spirit - for you they are a 'happy blend' and again that's a point I'll store for future reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Same as staying where I was born. I don’t see a difference, I don’t know if it’s reflected in the chart. My geographical position didn’t actually change the fact that my career suffered ups and downs, jealousy and envy. Those were accompanying me wherever I went. However, I've found that certain cities are much worse than others. The country doesn't matter so much. I actually checked a while ago the astromaps on Astro.com and (although I don't understand the lines completely), it seems the worst things over the past few years have happened close or on the Mars ruled lines (marked with MC) while some of the better times have been close or on lines ruled by Moon and/or Saturn (again marked with MC). My birth ciy is also on a Moon line but marked DC.
Now that is really is interesting in the light of some of the things that have emerged during the thread. I've not thought of linking this in to Astro-Cartography but that might well be worth an examination in the future. Also interesting that Mars and the Moon feature here. I'ts another way of saying that Transits aren't everything and that the Mars/Lunar expressions may pop up in different ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
There hasn’t been a debate actually. LOL I do consider more carefully now as a parent because I’m travelling with my son but a debate like “should I/shouldn’t I” doesn’t exist, it’s only more careful planning.
So it's your almost instinctive reaction - perhaps that Trave/Fortune/Spirit connection seems to be the natural you.
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I'm not going to keep to close to the Ship analogy, especially as being an ex-Business Studies lecturer, my analogy of choice would be a new company setting out in the market.

Your chart is clearly Nocturnal, with the Moon in the eleventh House. The Moon is therefore the 'Ultimate Ruler' to use Porphyry's phrase and the Oikodespotes, (which I likened to the Managing Director) will be Jupiter, ruler of the Sign of the Moon (Pisces) and the Co-operating Officer (Chief of Staff for the MD) is Mercury (the Moon is in the Bounds of Mercury). These two are supposed to set your destination in life and to act as guides.

With a Taurus Ascendant, Venus is the one doing the steering and she is in the Seventh on the Descendant. Being Angular she can see the Ascendant and can manage the steering reasonably well.

The Lord of Fortune is supposed to enable you to take advantage of Opportunities and to avoid, or at least minimise threats. Your Lord of Fortune is Mars. In principle, he can see both the Lot and the Ascendant so he should be in a good position to fullfil his role. The drawback is that he is Under the Sun's Beams - a position where he can't be seen or see. Checking his dignities, I can see that he's in his own Bounds and his own Decan. So he seems to qualify for being in his 'own chariot'. This lovely description simply means that he's in one of his dignities and this can shield him from the Sun's harmful beams. So I think the Lord of Fortune is going to still be able to do his job. Whatever happens to you, you should be able to turn it to your advantage.

This looks very promising up to now. The next issue is whether there is support in your chart for your attempts to reach your goal. The Hellenistic Astrolgoers, measured this by looking at the Triplicity or Trigon Lords of the Sect Light (The Moon). These are in order; Mars, Venus, Moon. If they are all angular then you have a lot of support - your life undertaking is stable. This reduces if they are in Succedent houses and becomes more precarious if they are all in cadent houses. In your case Mars is succedent, Venus is angular and the Moon is also succedent.

So there don't seem to be really poor periods in your life. The middle years are likely to be your best and when you will make most progress and have most effect. Even then your last third of your life is going to be no worse than the first third.

There is another planet that is referred to as the 'Supreme Ruler' - the Chairman of the Board, so to speak. Exactly how this planet is chosen appears to vary between writers. Porphyry, tends to merge the roles of Managing Director and Chairman of the Board, to get a Chairman and CEO type figure, who he calls the Oikodespotes. Whereas Schmidt's account sees them as separate roles, which are not usually shared by one planet.

In both cases it seems that the crux of the matter is the 'Fitness' scores of the planets. and their already identified roles - Porphyry and Scmidt refer to the ruler of the Sign of the prenatal lunation - the New Moon of Full Moon before your birth. In your case this was a New Moon in Virgo, which occured about 4 or 5 days before.


So the main contenders would be:

Venus (Ascendant Ruler and Second Trigon ruler)
Jupiter (Moon Ruler)
Mercury (Moon Bound Ruler and Ruler of Pre-natal lunation)
Mars (Ruler of Lot of Fortune and First Trigon Ruler)

I'll omit the Sun and Moon as they were not seen as being 'hands on' planets in this respect.

Of these four:

Venus is Angular, Rising and Direct and in the place of a Sectmate
Jupiter is in a Cadent house, Rising and Direct and in one of it's own places
Mercury is in a Cadent house, Rising but Retrograde and in one of it's own places
Mars is in a succedent house, not rising but Direct and in one of it's own places

All but Venus are in one of their own dignities but Mercury is Retrograde and in a cadent house, so I'll exclude him. Mars is not rising (Under the beams) so I'll exclude him.

That leaves Venus and Jupiter as the two contenders. Venus is angular whereas Jupiter is cadent, but Jupiter is in it's own exaltation whereas Venus has to rely on her Sectmates to help,

Despite being cadent, Jupiter seems a good bet. but the Angularity of Venus probably swings it for her. (Venus also wins using Lilly's method and using the routine in Morinus).

Overall this looks like a good situation for life. It's no guarantee that you won't have good periods and bad but it suggests you'll be able to use the bad experiences to learn from and that you won't simply end up without direction.
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As mentioned in the earlier post your birth is nocturnal 'but' and the 'but' is that the Moon has set and the Sun is nearing the horizon. This is a situation where Porphyry says it's not clear which of the two Lights dominate. Porphyry mentions that in that case the Ascendant can be taken as the 'Ultimate Ruler' and indeed Delphic Oracle suggests that the Ascendant is used.

However, Porphyry only cites the Ascendant as being used when both Sun and Moon are in Decline in the West. He says that if the Moon is in Decline in the West but the Sun is approaching the eastern horizon, then the Sun should be chosen. He adds that if both planets are below the horizon but in an angular or succedent house, then the Moon should be chosen because it is the Light of Sect.

With your chart, both are under the horizon, the Sun is in the second place - which is a succedent house, and the Moon is in the sixth, a Declining, or Cadent House,

If I use the quadrant house system that bears Porpyry's name, the Sun is in the First house, though some 25 degrees from the Ascendant; the Moon is in the sixth House though about 14 degrees from the Descendant - but crucially the Sun is going in the right direction and the Moon is going in the wrong direction.

So I'm going to take the Sun as the Ultimate Ruler, though I have to state that I'm not very confident of that, though more so than for the Moon and Ascendant.

That makes Jupiter the 'Managing Director' and indeed the Chief of Staff to the Managing Director, as Jupiter rules the Sun's sign of Sagittarius and also the Bounds in which the Sun falls.

Mars is the Ascendant Ruler (and along with Mercury) he's in the Ascendant. So Mars is best placed to steer the Nativity but using the map and instructions provided by Jupiter. In business terms, Mars is the Chief Administrative Officer.

The ruler of Fortune is Mercury, who is also in the first. But whilst Mercury is well placed, the Lot is not. It's in an adverse House to Mercury (and the Ascendant) being in the eighth. Taking advantages of opportunities and avoiding the risks that come your way may not be easy and may be something of a 'seat of the pants' experience.

The Trigon Lords for the Sun are: Jupiter, Sun and Saturn in that order.

Jupiter and Sun are in Succedent Houses, Saturn is in a Cadent or a Declining House. That seems to suggest that it's the Last part of your life where the troubles will be felt (assuming that this method has any validity at all).

Finally the prenatal lunation was a New Moon in Scorpio, so the ruler is Mars

Possible Supreme Rulers are:

Mars- Ruler of Ascendant and prenatal lunation - Angular, Rising, Direct, and in it's own places.

Mercury - Lord of Fortune - Angular, Rising and Direct and in the place of a sectmate

Jupiter -First Trigon Lord - Succedent, Rising and Direct, In it's own Place

Mars seems to be the winner there,

Indeed Mars is also the Almuten of the Chart, using Lilly's method and also is shown as such in Morinus.

So in summary, Mars is the strongest planet and is doing the steering. Jupiter the MD is in Pisces, trining Mars and in a slightly later terminology is in mutual reception with Mars. The only issues seem to be trying to use what befalls you in a positive way, rather than simply being surprised by it and making sure you keep doing that in the last third of your life.
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Please can you now let me know which area of life you would like me to concentrate on for your stage 3 reading (the Topical reading).

Jessyboo I've not forgotten you - I'll try and fit the PNA into the next few days
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
This is one of the areas that I am trying to get my head round, so if the explanation changes, it's because I've found something new. Firstly I think the Fitness/Energy/Completion framework coves more than one dimension. Specifically it feeds into the Length of Life calculation, as well as the general assessment of planetary strength and the areas of life that we are more familiar with.

At the moment, I am not planning to cover the Length of Life as I don't fully understand it to say the least and I certainly am not going field questions about 'how long will I live'. According to some of the material I should have had a very short life. As I'm in my mid 60's that's obviously not true. However I did have a 'traumatic' birth and I could have died at that point - in Hellenisitic times, I probably would have. The Length of Life calculation for some writers involves the use of 'Circumnabulations' a forerunner of Primary Directions, so part of the F/E/C is concerned with how effectively the planets add to or detract from your time here on Earth.

As I haven't disentangled this from the rest of the astrological use of F/E/C I have to be careful in drawing conclusions but I'd say as a first stab that Mars is full of potential but might not actually deliver as expected.
Understandable about not tackling Length of Life here! While it's certainly a subject we're all curious about, and I do plan on doing the Arabic/Medieval calculations for my own chart one of these days, I don't blame you for avoiding that can of worms on a public form. That the F/E/C "scores" would factor into this calculation makes a lot of sense, though. As well as the question of how effective a planet will be for the other life areas. I guess we'll see as we go on how my Mars performs.

Quote:
Well a positive influence from Mars might make you more assertive (without being aggressive) might help to get engaged faster with problems or indeed general life, might give you more strength or 'courage' to handle the hard times. This could show up not just in the affaris of the houses Mars rules, but also as a more general trait to your character. It may also blend positively with other planets it has configurations with. And I'll be looking at some of those in Stage 3.
These examples are helpful, thank you. I'd say it makes sense in my life, too. I'm not an aggressive person (except for maybe a little intellectual aggressiveness when hashing out a point), but I'm certainly assertive about my ideas, or when tackling a problem, or when standing up for someone. I'd agree that these traits are positive expressions of Mars energy, as opposed to the trouble he could cause if he were in bad shape.

Quote:
Well Firmicus states that Mars and Mercury together on the Ascendant by night make men (and presumably women) in charge of great religions, generals, heralds, guards and followers of emperors, or great administrators. So whilst not being debate oriented it certainly seems to be good.

Now I've used Firmicus there, and I've not allowed for other aspects to the pair. For Stage 3 I'll use other authors as well and try to interpret the configurations. Not all of them as I'd more than double the length of the thread on that one stage alone but for a selected topic.

In the section I've used above Firmicus talks about an opposition of square from Saturn in a nocturnal chart involving dangers, hindrances and the risk of being cheated. I'll have a look for what the trine can produce and include it at Stage 3 if you remind me.
Hmm. Well, it's good that it seems go be good! But I don't usually find myself "in charge" in the way of a general or leader. Herald, perhaps -- I do like to bring information to others, and can do it well also if diplomacy is required.

I look forward to reading the interpretations of the aspect configurations. Just the other day I was whining in the "Saturn Transiting Ascendant" thread about my Saturn & Mercury/Mars trine, so I hope you cover that one at least.





Yes I think there may well be and I'll look at that at the outset of Stage 2.[/QUOTE]
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