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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Thankfully, Saturn is not going to be retro for that long (from my point of view). We'll see what happens when he approaches and crosses the MC.

My problem with the releasing and profections is that I can't find they are 100% working. I checked all important dates and events I could recall in my life and while for some of them I do see a hint, for others I do not. It seems to me it's like reading cards - one should stick to one system and polish it to perfection... Otherwise, if we take into consideration all rulers, houses, angles, and aspects to and from them, there will always be "something" to "lean on" but this is not good enough and not reliable enough for me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope View Post
relationships over the years. I'm actually going through a long transiting Uranus trine to my Venus now, as well as transiting Jupiter opposing Venus, and think I'm definitely feeling those a lot. It would be interesting to see if I'd also recognize the Stage 4 time periods as significant.
Can you give me your marriage date and I'll try and use that for calibration, then give me a couple of years (not dates) that were significant, perhaps first significant relationship but not necessarily and I'll see if I can spot the approximated date.
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kalliope  kalliope is offline
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Ooooof! Sorry for being MIA lately. Hopefully I'll be back to a more normal online schedule now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
On the empty houses, I think there's still a leftover' of this in those horoscope columns in newspapers and magazines, when it says something like...'Venus is transiting your fifth house so now is the time for romance'. The author can have no knowledge of whether there's any planets there are not but still sees it as an important event.
Yes, it does seem somewhat common for modern astrology to reference a planet actually transiting through an empty house. This makes me think of one of your first posts in this thread, the one that mentioned using either an Ascendant-based chart or a sun-sign based chart for very basic horoscopic predictions. I've always read both Sagittarius (Sun) and Scorpio (Asc) when reading magazine horoscopes, and usually one or the other seems relevant. To be honest, though, I haven't discerned a pattern as to when each one is more accurate.

So while it's kind of intuitive to think a planet traipsing through a house in one's chart would have an effect, it's crazy to think of including trines, squares, etc., to those empty houses. THAT seems very foreign.

Quote:
I think it's more that you can't see things as clearly as you want to. There's an issue here between what your soul wants and what the world tries to impose on you...you touch on it again several times in this post
Astute point about my comments in the post being a good expression of this issue!

Quote:
One of the downsides of Hellenistic Astrology is that there are a multitude of Lots and often the same Lot has several variants. I took my original set of Lots from Joseph Crane's book, 'Astrological Roots: The Hellenistic Legacy'. In that book he also mentioned alternative calculations for Eros and Necessity.

There are four versions listed, three of them base Eros on the Lots of Fortune and Spirit. Valens and Paulus give day/night versions but the opposite way round. Firmicus uses a day version which reverses at night.

The version I used was:

ASC + Spirit - Fortune

Which is the D/N version for Valens and the Nocturnal Version for Firmicus. For the Paulus version simply swap Spirit and Fortune.

Of these, Valens is the older one, though it's possible that Firmicus used an earlier source than Valens.

It's easy to add this (these?) to your list of Lots in Morinus
I didn't realize until this thread that there were so many variation of almost every Lot formula. I'll add these to my Morinus Lots file. Thanks!

Quote:
I think I'm saying that there's no distractions in seeing that you need to help through good works. That is the direction your actions should take you (and hence your career). That there are no planets in the elventh does not mean that 'trusted friends' don't exist or won't help, but that they won't get in the way. Spirit and Action seem to hang together.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.

Quote:
I think it's what you need to do. It doesn't have to be a mega activity but it does need to be something that you find spiritually rewarding. Something that allows you to at least live with those academics, yet feel that you are not oppressed by science. I hope you are able to do that.
You know, in a way, I've pretty much become one of "those academics" with a very scientific world-view myself, over the years. I've adopted that way of thinking and judging, so over time I've become very concerned with appearing to be "legitimate," and rational. Even to the extent that on the Myers-Briggs I now test as an INTP (thinking preference) vs the INFP (feeling preference) result I would get during my early-mid 20s (although I probably have always tended toward the middle on that scale, so switching sides was relatively easy.) But anyhow, this has probably only exacerbated my issues with finding a path that feels rewarding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Can you give me your marriage date and I'll try and use that for calibration, then give me a couple of years (not dates) that were significant, perhaps first significant relationship but not necessarily and I'll see if I can spot the approximated date.
Hmm. So, maybe this will be harder than I thought. I don't actually think of my marriage date as particularly significant in the scheme of things. We went off by ourselves to City Hall after being together for 6.5 years. We'd already been living together, moved to Boston, bought a house, etc. Would that date still be useful, then?

Or could this be an opportunity to compare the different Lots of Eros (passion) vs Marriage (practicality or companionship)? I have dates of more tumultuous, passionate affairs vs. calmer, "easier," more stable relationships.

Or would you prefer to focus on another life area? The only other one I could think of is financial outlook.

Here is some general info though:
marriage date: 10 Dec 2009
started dating husband: 2003
first significant relationship year: 1995
drama: 1997-1998, also 1999
semi-drama: 2012
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope View Post
You know, in a way, I've pretty much become one of "those academics" with a very scientific world-view myself, over the years. I've adopted that way of thinking and judging, so over time I've become very concerned with appearing to be "legitimate," and rational. Even to the extent that on the Myers-Briggs I now test as an INTP (thinking preference) vs the INFP (feeling preference) result I would get during my early-mid 20s (although I probably have always tended toward the middle on that scale, so switching sides was relatively easy.) But anyhow, this has probably only exacerbated my issues with finding a path that feels rewarding.
I'm actually more the reverse, as I was an academic up to my retirement and the scientific method was all powerful. However the last few years (perhaps 10 of a 40 year career) I began to realise that science is actually quite limited in its ability to describe 'reality' as we experience it. Indeed if you think about it, Myers-Briggs harks back to the 4 humours of Medieval Astrology, though with the more mystical elements hidden from view. One of the things that really pushed me hard towards Astrology was the realisation that 'modern' psychology wasn't quite as modern as it's adherents made out.

However challenging scientific orthodoxy is not really allowed in academic circles (if you value your career and standing). It's just not done to challenge the axioms, or even make it clear that they too are based on faith. Science is a good method to examine the 'hows' but doesn't work well with the 'whys' and even with the 'hows' it is not a complete answer (but then nothing is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope
I didn't realize until this thread that there were so many variation of almost every Lot formula. I'll add these to my Morinus Lots file. Thanks!
The Lots were in continuous use for around 1,000 years, so it's not surprising that they were altered or re-thought from time to time. Again different Astrologers tended to view some of the concepts in different ways - or at least seemed to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalliope
Hmm. So, maybe this will be harder than I thought. I don't actually think of my marriage date as particularly significant in the scheme of things. We went off by ourselves to City Hall after being together for 6.5 years. We'd already been living together, moved to Boston, bought a house, etc. Would that date still be useful, then?

Or could this be an opportunity to compare the different Lots of Eros (passion) vs Marriage (practicality or companionship)? I have dates of more tumultuous, passionate affairs vs. calmer, "easier," more stable relationships.

Or would you prefer to focus on another life area? The only other one I could think of is financial outlook.

Here is some general info though:
marriage date: 10 Dec 2009
started dating husband: 2003
first significant relationship year: 1995
drama: 1997-1998, also 1999
semi-drama: 2012
Those will do fine hopefully they will get me somewhere.
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Stage 4 for Spiraling - precursor


I've been quite busy for the last week and I have fallen behind with things (mea culpa) however I want to make a start on Spiraling's stage 4.

I'm not sure how a Hellenistic Astrologer would approach this issue, but as it's an important one, I'm going to have a try. Valens gives a list of what planets and points to use in forecasting

when we investigate the length of life and bodily or mental activities, we count from the Ascendant.

On the other hand, when we investigate rank, pre-eminence, magnificence, the father, great personages, and whatever other matters are usually influenced by the Sun’s nature, we will start the year count with the Sun

For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the Moon.

For forecasts of occupations, livelihood, and work, we will start with MC.

For forecasts of good fortune and success in life, we will start with the Lot of Fortune.

For forecasts of mortality, change, or trouble, we will start with the Descendant.

For forecasts of estates, possessions, secret matters, legacies, we will start with IC.

For forecasts of women, love affairs, associations, or the category “female,” we will start with Venus.

For forecasts of military or public matters, we will start with Mars.

For forecasts of bankruptcy, money or property, secret diseases, or family inheritance, we will start with Saturn.

For forecasts of rank, friendship, alliances, and possessions, we will start with Jupiter.

For forecasts of associations, slave matters, servile matters, giving and receiving, or written matters, we will start with Mercury.


The trouble is that none of these directly address what we would now call psychological issues, though the Ascendant, Fortune, Spirit, Moon, IC and Descendant all seem relevant.

There's another issue too - the period began just as Spiraling was entering her teens, and one or two Astrologers don't apply the methods to someone that young. Nevertheless, I don't see that that is a cause for not trying so in that light I will start examining the issues in my next post.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Just wanted to give a small update. As I wrote before on the 27th of March both the profected month changed and there was a Loose of Bond. As of today, I'm facing the most threatening times related to my son from my ex. Mercury rules my 5th natally. I don't know how all this will end but I'm absolutely terrified that I'll can go to court where my parenthood will be questioned.
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Just wanted to give a small update. As I wrote before on the 27th of March both the profected month changed and there was a Loose of Bond. As of today, I'm facing the most threatening times related to my son from my ex. Mercury rules my 5th natally. I don't know how all this will end but I'm absolutely terrified that I'll can go to court where my parenthood will be questioned.
I hope and pray everything works out for you. I'm sure it will

I'm sure everyone else will join with me in wishing you well through a difficult time, we're thinking of you.
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Thank you, Minderwiz. I see there is another Loose of Bond towards the middle of April but that's too early to change anything as the whole story will keep developing for many more months to come. Which planets should I consider in relation to courts, legal stuff, etc? What should I look for (except from mercury as a ruler of the 5th)?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
I hope and pray everything works out for you. I'm sure it will

I'm sure everyone else will join with me in wishing you well through a difficult time, we're thinking of you.
Yes, indeed. I wish everything turns out for the best!
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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
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Originally Posted by spiraling View Post
It became esp. detrimental as I entered my teenage years. I practically escaped from 'real life' altogether via the computer. It's something I continue to struggle with, although I had dropped someone who was a major factor in my escapism.

I'll say... Late 2001. During winter break. Mid-December 2001.

It was wasted on a particular website, where I picked up two 'close' online friends for 4 or 5 years.

My recent stalker came off this site around 2004-05, also. For now, he's the 'icon' for my Venus/Pluto in Scorpio, 7th House, on the Descendant. I worried about what sort of person this signification would bring into my life, and it's been validated.

It's a chapter of my life I'm struggling to close, internally, and evidently, externally.
I'm examining a period where you are leaving childhood behind and entering adolescence. I don't think Valens used Zodiacal Releasing for examining childhood but I think that the period you've focused on is hopefully readable.

I'll start with profections for the times mentioned and then move on to have a look at Zodiacal Releasing.

Profections from Ascendant

December 2001 was in your thirteenth year, so by profection everything returns to it's original position (on your twelfth birthday). This makes Venus Lord of the year. As well as ruling your Ascendant, Venus also rules your sixth House of Libra. The focus is on you, your body, mind and Spirit and also possibly ill health.

I'd say the problems began at the start of the month, as Venus moves into your eighth House (though they might not have become apparent at first). The first of December was a Sagittarius day and marked the entry of Venus into Sagittarius, your eighth sign. On 25 December (the middle of the month) you entered a Leo month focusing attention on your fourth house, of home and the opposite house to the tenth of Action. This is the month of a 'Me' year in which you withdrew into yourself.

Profections from the Descendant

December 2001 is in a Scorpio year. The activation of Scorpio also creates an activation for it's ruler, Mars, and the natal planets in Scorpio (Venus) and also the Lot of Fortune which lies in the Sign. Valens sees profections from the Descendant as indicating change and trouble and profections from the Lot of Fortune indicating good fortune and success. Mars is began the year transiting your ninth House of Dreams and quickly transiting your natal Saturn (ruler of your ninth and tenth). On the ninth of December Mars entered your eleventh House focusing attention on friends and hopes. This was the time you began to make new friends via the Internet.

Profections from the Moon

Profections from the Moon give some indication about your health. Your natal Moon is in Pisces, your eleventh house. Your health will be in some way or other influenced by your friendships - as the natal position is above the horizon, this influence is likely to be felt at a spiritual or soul level during the year (this being a 'first house' year, re-emphasising your natal position). The profected month beginning 15th December is a Gemini month, relating your spiritual health to your physical possessions (such as a computer). Saturn is transiting Gemini and Mars is transiting Pisces, so both relevant houses contain malefics. Mars is already active in the issues of trouble and change. Transiting Saturn was opposed by Transiting Venus (a few days earlier). Transiting Venus is now opposing your transiting Lot of Nemesis, in Gemini (15 minutes separation). Nemesis, to quote Crane is 'Saturnine and thoroughly wretched: hidden negative factors, weakness ("impotence#2), exile, loss abd death'

Nemisis is in many ways unavoidable, it is an area of life over which you have no control and ends up often controlling you in a negative way. Your natal Lot of Nemesis lies just inside Cancer - your third House and a house often associated with communications and indeed computers (though I prefer the ninth for the latter)

So during that month beginning in mid December there are signs that your health and well being is threatened and that the threat is related to your possessions (The second house of Gemini is ruled by Mercury, itself the natural significator of computers and communications). As natal Moon is in Pisces it is ruled by Jupiter and in mid December, Jupiter was transiting your third house (often associated with communications) and not only completing your first Jupiter Return but re-awakening the natal Jupiter/Saturn opposition. A Day after the month began the transiting Moon also emphasised the same opposition.

The above shows that there were indicators of spiritual problems during the month but these do not account for a prolonged period (unless we associate them with the Jupiter return, which I think is stretching the connection). So I will also look at the Zodiacal Releasing periods

Zodiacal Releasing from Fortune

The problem with ZR here is that you were so young that you were still in your first ZR period (in fact one that lasted till 2004). As stated earlier, Valens warns against applying this method to childhood. But for the sake of this analysis I'll do that as coming up to teenage years might be argued to be an indication of leaving childhood behind. 2001 was a Level 2 Cancer year (emphasising your third House). Early December 2001 saw the start of a Cancer Level 3 and 4 period focusing everything on your third house, which as we have already seen emphasises the Moon and your health (and the Lot of Nemesis). I think the coincidence of the Time Lord period and the profections probably account for why this month set a behaviour pattern which persisted beyond the profected year. This December period was marked by a Loosing of the Bond, so it seemed to be particularly important.

The major period ended in June 2004 and you entered a Sagittarus period, which is still continuing and will end in April 2016. Although Sagittarius is your eighth House and therefore carries negative indications, it would be a mistake to classify the whole period as negative - there will be good times during the period but the influence of your eighth plance will linger in the background. Hellenisitic Astrologers labeled the eighth as 'Idle' an indication that it will not be easy to get things done or break patterns completely while this period is in force. Interestingly you describe this period as 'wasted' which is a good synonym for 'Idle' I stress 'easily' rather than simply an inability go get things done - the overall tendency is to inertia, and you have to work to break out. The worst of this period will have been from April 2004 to June 2005 - around the time you quoted above. At the beginning of that period Jupiter (ruler of your eighth) was transiting your fifth house and at that age, the outlet for fifth house activities is through play, games, exercise, relaxation and hobbies. I would hazard a guess that your used of websites had been established as your way of relaxing and 'enjoying' your self. - After this period other sign/houses begin to take effect on a more immediate level. I would guess that around December 2007 marked something of an improvement as Jupiter moved into your ninth house.

Currently you are in a Gemini L2 period, which began in January 2013 and this will continue till September next year, when your final L2 of this main period will being. It will be a Cancer period so there may be the final echoes of the period that began in 2004 through transits to Cancer and your natal Moon. However you won't have another Sagittarius main period, so these issues should die with it.

BTW did your recent stalker materialise around mid September last year?
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