Important Tips to Newbies

But... In an attempt to give newbies some food for thought I post this question to all readers!

How do you use elementary dignities?

What could be the benefit of using it for newbies?

/Torbjörn


PS

I use it all the time. And the benefit is that it kind of gives me the direction of the spread beforehand. To make notes of what elements are lackning and which ones that are there, greatly improves the result in a reading FOR ME! If I am doing the Celtic cross and no cups show up, and no Grearer Arcana cards that symbolizes water, then it ususally means that a lack of emotions are present. If the pentacles (I use toth) are missing: a lack of practical results.

But two weeks ago a reading I did on myself with a spread with 11 cards were filled with cups - and yes I was emotional that day!

)

I don't use dignities as I get confused with too many other ways of reading a spread. But thank you for the advice.

It would seem to me that the keyword in the title of this topic, being "newbie', is the definitive to their approach in reading and that level of tarot understanding either overlooked or forgotten by yourself Ranzel.
I don't doubt that your intention was meant to be good/helpful in offering your personal tips to 'improving' their interpretative abilities, but be honest, did you take note of all those associations connected to tarot when you began reading yourself?
Did you have the knowledge when you first began to draw and lay cards before yourself to read their elements, astrological associations, dignities and such into your interpretations to give them greater depth from the get-go?
I doubt it.

Tarot is a complex animal as those of us more experienced with it know, and to expect a novice student to incorporate all those complexities into their early readings is revealing a certain level of intellectual snobbery within yourself.
I've read people like you, Ranzel, at other forums who, under the guise of offering well intentioned advice to novice students actually instill a sense of inferiority and self-doubt of ability in new tarot students.
I could direct you to such forums and you could see for yourself just how many new students are encouraged there to participate. They might begin with lots of enthusiasm, but it's sad/disappointing to see someone who has a genuine interest in the art of reading tarot lose their inspirational and motivating spark. Indeed, the intellectual snobs that inhabit such forums even discourage more experienced readers if they don't read in the same manner as those forums Mods and their personal sycophants.
Your kind of 'mentoring' does nothing to advance or accelerate the tarot learning process for new students.
In fact, I'm quite certain in many instances you influence new tarot students to abandon the tarot learning path.

Let people learn at their own pace, one in which they feel comfortable with all that is new and unknown to them being learned, absorbed and applied.
And I am also of the opinion that a perfectly good reading can be achieved and given without having to give consideration to those various associations.

A corned beef sandwich can be nice and will satisfy your hunger. Whether or not you have cheese and mustard pickles with it to improve the flavour is a matter of choice and their use dependent on whether they are available to you. Same goes with tarot, you do what you can with the knowledge and understanding you have.

I actually agree with Kircher Tree :S I'm new at AT, so I don't know how things normally go, still testing the water a bit, reading lots. As I am reasonably new to Tarot, I am interested in this thread. But, I'm sorry to say, the vibe of most replies to this suggestion, a tip, don't make me feel like posting any suggestions myself.
I think it's good that people come up with ideas and tips. And it's up to the individual, newbie or pro, to do something with it. If it feels like something worthwhile, you can choose to try, if you feel it's not for you, you leave it.
Regardless of this being a good tip or not, I think it's educational to be able to share suggestions and tips. But almost having your head chewed off doesn't make it very enticing :S
And in the end we are discussing the way teachers should work and pupils etc. To add to that, imo off topic discussion: some people learn best in a very structured environment, others need to be able to dive in the deep.That's why teaching is so difficult, cos if you follow one method, the other group suffers and vice versa. A middle road might mean no one gets what he needs. When working one on one this is not such a prob, but if you work with groups, it is a difficult factor.
Back to the original topic, the tip, I think this applies; If it feels like something worthwhile, you can choose to try, if you feel it's not for you, you leave it. (As one should do with any piece of advice I guess)

Warm wishes

Ravenne

It's understood what your saying ,this is wondering off topic ,but just like renzel,these others have an opinion, this is a group session and if one took the hat around you'll find that not just the posters but the viewers also will see as many varied opinions,some will pick up what renzel has offered ,some will poo poo it ,.Thats what this forum and post is about ,exposing ways to uncover their own individual ways,but without others opinions it would be seen as THE ONLY WAY, all who have read this post by now know that it isn't THE ONLY WAY and as such this forum and post has done it's job.

Yes indeed. Discussion here does tend to get lively. It isn't hostile as a rule. And this thread isn't. If you don't believe me - have a look at a few others
But when someone says something is THE way it always gets noisy !

I have been blasted for many things here. Big deal. No-one has to agree with me. (I know I am right. FOR ME. And where I wasn't - I have learned from the posts disagreeing.)

I do think, as a general thing, that elements are a tough one for newbies. And since no method in this world gives the same results for everyone using it, it isn't possible to say "then you will know what the cards will mean." I assume no-one suggests that if we all lay out the same cards for the same question using the same spread and follow exactly the "instructions" given here, we will all come up with the same result ?

Nope That's one reason that the readings threads asking for advice get so many responses - because every last one of us sees the cards differently. Even if we are in theory using the same "method" and "bits."

I am allergic to everything except glorp. myself. But I have been read for by others using all manner of stuff and got a lot from it.

Ranzel said:

As tarot readers we are all entitled to our own style of / and interpretation of cards. But, perhaps we should not forget the "basics" for they are the ones that is more important… [snip] …I think applying these basic principles will make it more easier and fast for the newbies to learn tarot reading and as they advance over the years they could develop their own style just like the rest of our experts here.

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Ranzel,

The problem with this theory is that elements are not a “basic” because there is much complexity and disagreement on any elemental “theory” and presenting it to a newbie as a basic is a fallacy, in my opinion.

Many books may be in agreement, if you mostly read books by the same publisher. Read a little further, dig a little deeper, and you will find much disagreement. You will even find those who ignore it altogether!

It’s not ‘forgetting the basics’ so much as it is… debating what the basics are.

As said, what works for you may not work for everyone, and there are other ways to ‘check the situation’ besides using elementals. There are other ways to use/see elementals beyond what you see.

There is no quick-fix to Tarot. There are tricks to be sure, and each person has their own way, but there is no advice for instant success and no simple advice at all for elemental systems, in my opinion. Elemental systems, especially not just using suits but using the elements associated with the Major Arcana, are complex.

There’s no magic bullet for newbies. Your perspective is welcome, but it is not the magic ticket, and those who do otherwise may not be ‘forgetting the basics’ but rather using different basics than you… perhaps ones you haven’t seen yet. It’s a complex thing, is all.

Regardless of this being a good tip or not, I think it's educational to be able to share suggestions and tips. But almost having your head chewed off doesn't make it very enticing :S

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Sure, but this is a discussion board, not a soap box. So… there’s probably going to be some debate and discussion, especially if you elect to call something ‘basic.’ I don’t think anyone is saying NOT to use Ranzel’s theory or that Ranzel should change his reading style (I certainly wouldn’t do that to anyone, and I cannot imagine anyone here doing so), but to not point out other ways, other theories, and potential pitfalls would be a disservice to the board, I think.

The best thing I’ve gotten from AT is great discussion that makes you think on the many views of any particular Tarot topic.

Rantzel... What makes some people react is your absoulte statement that your view is equal to truth... I too reacted against that.




/Torbjörn

Kircher Tree said:

Wow. Tough crowd here tonight. These people must eat nails for breakfast.
But I wonder why they are in a noob thread if they don't want to hear any suggestions. No one who "seems to get OK results" and would ever consider changing anything.

I don't ever recall that I indicated the "the other 3591/2 degrees" should be ignored. And I certainly don't remember ever saying or implying that one method should work for everyone.

Anyway, I'm out of here. Too nasty. Too defensive here. Next, I think I will go to the Toth forum and say something derogatory about Uncle Al.

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You didn't say that. But the first post certainly did suggest exactly that. "Those who do not use elements ARE (not may be) missing some important points."

Then, check the missing elements. These are the most important elements because these missing elements are the ones causing all the problem in that particular situation (example: when earth/pentacles are missing, it means that the situation needs solid foundation, it also means that the situation is floating with nothing solid to hold on)

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"...ARE the most important." And so on.

Why are we all in a noob thread ? Because we all want to learn, and there is often good stuff in them,. The method is interesting. I might always change something some day. This particular day isn't it. I am not defending my method for anyone else; I am defending it for myself. As we all are.

If you say something derogatory about Uncle Al - I can almost guarantee the thread will get lively.... There are people here with direct links...

May I just interrupt and make a small comment here? It sounds like this 'elemental' approach is most likely based on RWS meanings.

If so, we should perhaps remember that the RWS system was created for magical workings, not divination.

So I say, "each to his own". Examine a 'structure' if you feel it will help you. In the end you will probably do your own thing anyway.

Bee