Museums and copyright ownership of Public domain images..

OctoberGwen

Jenny_writer said:
If museums in Great Britain avoid these kind of lawsuits for fear of setting a president, I doubt if some third world country would try it.

Eh?? Do you mean "precedent"? And if so, I still don't understand your sentence.

Jenny_writer said:
Also, for your lawyer to say "you can probably get away with it." implies that she is either of the opinion that there actually is a law against it or something "wrong" with it, or she simply has no idea.

Or it could simply mean that when you're talking about art that's in the public domain, it's a cloudy issue. Especially when the Internet is involved.
 

Gloria Jean

OctoberGwen said:
Eh?? Do you mean "precedent"? And if so, I still don't understand your sentence.

yes I mean precedent.

American and British copyright laws are very similar. Any opinion of the courts in America or Great Britain can be "harmful" for those museums. Certainly this one was. (This is why they try to settle out of court and basically bluff their way through most cases before taking it to the limit.)

I took this from an article written from the museums point of view about this Corel vs Bridgeman case. They tried to get Bridgeman (the museum) to drop the case because it was going badly for the museum and would set a precedent that would be harmful for them.

Quote:
In September, we learned that the oral arguments had gone so badly for Bridgeman that the judge stated he was inclined to rule in favor for Corel on the spot. We tried, to no avail, to convince Bridgeman to withdraw from the suit before the expected harmful opinion could be issued. As it turns, Art Resource (whose business includes licensing of reproductions), also tried to talk Bridgeman into dropping the case. We also had been keeping the AAM Copyright Group, composed of museum general counsels and others experienced with museum copyright issues, apprised of developments.



http://www.panix.com/~squigle/rarin/corel2.html

Or it could simply mean that when you're talking about art that's in the public domain, it's a cloudy issue. Especially when the Internet is involved.

What is cloudy about it? Except for dates and laws being confusing? It is certainly confusing, but not cloudy.

p.s. Museums would like it to be 'cloudy' that's why they avoid cases like this. It is cases like this that clear up the cloudiness.
 

Rosanne

LOL! So I have bought a reproduction deck of cards, the originals are held by a Museum, can I have a card from that deck printed on to a T shirt?

I have a very good reproduction of a painting from a museum that is 600 years old- can I make beer coasters from that reproduction?
Can I give the T Shirts as presents?
Can I sell the beer coasters?

I have corrupted an old card image, with my drawing skills- can I make an Easter card with this image and sell it?

I have a photo of a poster on my computer, that was used for advertising, from a new artist- can I photoshop it change the colours and print it. (Something like a Warhol Marilyn Munro :D)

I bought some street art in Italy (very cheap) have not a clue who the artist is- they were a dime a dozen- can I make cards from them?

Practical answers- no legal jargon.
For myself if the artist was alive and I knew the artist- I would not do a rip off of their work. I do not even copy music CD's or film DVD's- not because it is theft, but because if the artist does not make money- they will stop creating and I will lose in the end. Nevertheless I would like to make Easter cards of this.........
 

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Rosanne

Now here is an example I have this photo of Major Tom's Tarot.
If I was to make a Advertising card of my Tarot Business (which I do not have, nor likely to have) I presume I would have to ask Tom if I could use his cards for this, possibly have to pay him a royalty and credit his deck on the card if he was to say yes?
Was it even legal for me to post this photo without Tom's permission?
 

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cirom

If this had been one of my decks your were showing in this way, I would have absolutely no problem. In fact I would appreciate it, as arguably its good publicity certainly if you include a credit. Furthermore it doesn't show the whole deck face on so there's no piracy risk attached from someone copying the full set of cards.

Now had you modified those images and then shown them, I would have been uncomfortable because that may cause confusion as to which is the original, which is the modified, who did which etc etc. Or I may simply not like it if you lampoon the originals in any way. And so a permission request at least would have been appreciated.

If you were then selling those modifications as actual items, (as opposed to just promoting your tarot reading services) very definitely requesting permission would be the correct thing to do (and if the scope of the project warranted it some kind of payment)
 

Alta

To me those are very good distinctions, Ciro.
 

Pagan X

OK, I'll take a stab at this. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer.
I'll divide this up into different categories...on the assumption that now, photographic reproductions of out-of-public-domain artwork are no longer legally copy protected as property neither of the museums holding the art nor the photographers.

Rosanne said:
LOL! So I have bought a reproduction deck of cards, the originals are held by a Museum, can I have a card from that deck printed on to a T shirt?

Legally: No. You are reproducing a physical object (the deck of cards) that belongs to the producer of the deck of cards. (Like US Games owns their versions of the RWS deck that is reproduced on their physical cards.)

Ethically: No. Borderline, though; does the museum sell a tee-shirt? Why not buy the museums tee-shirt?

Practically:Sure you can on your own printer from your computer.

Rosanne said:
I have a very good reproduction of a painting from a museum that is 600 years old- can I make beer coasters from that reproduction?

Legally: Maybe. It depends on what the reproduction is. If it's a digital version of a photograph, you're ok.
Not if you are reproducing a physical object (such as a print) that belongs to the producer of that physical object. (Like US Games owns their versions of the RWS deck that is reproduced on their physical cards.)

Ethically: No. Borderline, though; does the museum sell beer coasters? Why not buy the museums beer coasters?

Practically:Sure you can if your local print shop doesn't require proof of rights to the artwork you're using.


Rosanne said:
Can I give the T Shirts as presents?

Legally: Maybe. It depends on what the reproduction is. If it's a digital version of a photograph, you're ok.
Not if you are reproducing a physical object (such as a print) that belongs to the producer of that physical object. (Like US Games owns their versions of the RWS deck that is reproduced on their physical cards.)

Ethically: No. Borderline, though; does the museum sell tee shirts? Why not give the museum's tee shirts as gifts?

Practically:Sure you can, if your print all the tee-shirts yourself or your local print shop doesn't require that you prove ownership of the rights.

Rosanne said:
Can I sell the beer coasters?
Legally: Maybe. It depends on what the reproduction is. If it's a digital version of a photograph, you're ok.
Not if you are reproducing a physical object (such as a print) that belongs to the producer of that physical object (the museum). (Like US Games owns their versions of the RWS deck that is reproduced on their physical cards.)

Ethically: No. You are competing with the museum in selling beer coasters that supports the museum's ability to make that artwork available to the public and you haven't contributed to the artist, the museum, nor the photographer.

Practically: Depends.
If you are using a digital copy of a photograph provided by the Museum, the Museum can no longer go after your eBay ad.

If you are using a photograph you took of a physical object (Print), they still can b3ecause you have slavishly reproduced their physical object that they created.

If you are using a photograph you took of the original painting in the museum, you're ok.

Also, you need to use a print shop doesn't require proof of rights to the artwork you're using.

Rosanne said:
I have corrupted an old card image, with my drawing skills- can I make an Easter card with this image and sell it?

Legally: Maybe.

A.Is the old card image in public domain?

If you own the card and photographed it yourself, go to town.

B.Is it not?
It depends how much (a % formula) you have altered the original to make it a creative work.

If you are reproducing a physical object (card) that belongs to the producer of that physical object then you need to meet the creativity threshold. (Like US Games owns their versions of the RWS deck that is reproduced on their physical cards)

Ethically:
A. Yes. Give credit to the source image, the originating artist, and any museums or universities supporting that artists' work for the benefit of posterity.

B.Maybe. In my opinion, if you got permission from the originating artist/ or it is clear from your useage it couldn't be mistaken for the origininating artist's work. Definitely give credit to the originating artist and steer fans his/her way.

Practically:
A. Yes
B. Yes

Rosanne said:
I have a photo of a poster on my computer, that was used for advertising, from a new artist- can I photoshop it change the colours and print it. (Something like a Warhol Marilyn Munro :D)

Legally: Depends on what you do with it.
Printing it out for your own wall or on your own computer, it falls under "Fair Use". So that's ok.
If you display it to other people, let them know you altered the original artist's work and steer them towards that artist.
If you reproduce it any way--including posting on a website--it may or may not fall under fair use.
If you use it commercially, without artist permission it is probably not enough of a chage to fall under fair use.

Ethically:
Printing it out for your own wall or on your own computer, it falls under "Fair Use". So that's ok.
If you display it to other people, let them know you altered the original artist's work and steer them towards that artist.

Practically:
see the above, you know how this goes...

Rosanne said:
I bought some street art in Italy (very cheap) have not a clue who the artist is- they were a dime a dozen- can I make cards from them?

Legally: No

Ethically: No.

Practically:
see the above, you know how this goes...


Rosanne said:
For myself if the artist was alive and I knew the artist- I would not do a rip off of their work. I do not even copy music CD's or film DVD's- not because it is theft, but because if the artist does not make money- they will stop creating and I will lose in the end. Nevertheless I would like to make Easter cards of this.........
 

Rosanne

Thank Cirom for your reply- that was clear- it really comes down to courtesy in the example that I gave of Major Tom's Tarot.
Thank you PaganX- that was also clear. Basically one should give the ethics a good consideration- even well before the legality of things.
I have in the past posted links to photo's on Google and I notice that quite often now, you need permission from the photographer. For Historical photo's the best place is travel blogs and firms. There seems no problem.
I had once been tempted to use a Tarot image on a T Shirt after a Tarot weekend as part and parcel of the experience. I just did not know- even if I thought that an image was Public Domain if it was the correct thing to do- so I didn't.
Interesting subject.

~Rosanne
 

Gloria Jean

I'll tell you how I understand it. I am also not a lawyer.

Rosanne said:
LOL! So I have bought a reproduction deck of cards, the originals are held by a Museum, can I have a card from that deck printed on to a T shirt?

The reproduction deck has probably been altered by size, shape, lettering, and many other things. Even the design could be changed, things moved around etc. For example my deck, Infinite Visions Tarot. Every card has been altered and redesigned. Most have pieces of two to five different public domain artworks involved in the new design. This new design is copyright protected in my name. Answer is NO. You can't print any of these on a T-shirt.

Other reproduction/collage decks have frames, lettering, and have been cropped and sized to fit the deck. These designs are also copyright protected in the creators name. NO, you can't print them on a T-shirt.

What you can do is find the original slavish copy of the public domain art and use it to create your own card or use it to print on a T-shirt.

I have a very good reproduction of a painting from a museum that is 600 years old- can I make beer coasters from that reproduction?
Can I give the T Shirts as presents?
Can I sell the beer coasters?

If the reproduction is deemed as a slavish copy of the public domain original, yes you can. It does not matter if it is digital or printed.

However, if the reproduction has been redesigned by the producer (changed or altered enough to be considered an original design) Then NO you can't.

I have corrupted an old card image, with my drawing skills- can I make an Easter card with this image and sell it?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "an old card image." Is it a greeting card or tarot card? Is it in public domain?


I have a photo of a poster on my computer, that was used for advertising, from a new artist- can I photoshop it change the colours and print it. (Something like a Warhol Marilyn Munro :D)

No. Any recognizable art or photograph on the poster is copyright protected. The only way you could get away with it is to change it so much that it or any part of it can't be recognized.

I think Warhol should have been sued. :D

I bought some street art in Italy (very cheap) have not a clue who the artist is- they were a dime a dozen- can I make cards from them?

No you can't (legally) it is still under copyright protection- even if it is not signed, but you could probably get away with it on a small scale simply because probably nobody cares.

Glo