Celtic Cross Created By William Butler Yeats

Teheuti

Charles - I look forward to your posting. I suggest you copy your postings and paste into a word processing document before clicking "Submit Reply" - at least then you will still have a copy of what you have written.

It's interesting that Yeats didn't use this spread in any of his journals, including spreads interpreted by his Uncle George. Both he and Annie Horniman appeared to only use Step 1 of the Opening of the Key (the arch spread). Do you know of any other personal readings written down by Golden Dawn members?
 

Charles Darnay

Roger has not seen any but the Annie Horniman readings from GD and the October 15,1897,George Pollexfen letter.
However the Hanged Man reading had a very special meaning for Yeats and Florence and they were not likely to have used it for common divination.
Arland Ussher was thrown off because George told him Yeats was "only interested in the Tarot for purposes of divination and fortune-telling" but Waite defines the Hanged Man as "divination" in "The Pictorial Key To the Tarot" and "fortune-telling" is a good description of Tarot X,The Wheel of Fortune.Paul Foster Case in 1915 placed the Hanged Man on the path between Hod and Geburah and the Wheel between Netzach and Chesed. Roger has seen the same arrangement in older European collections.
Ussher of course did not realize what George was saying to him until Roger explained it to him many years after the event .He was not a member of any GD society any more than Roger is but he regularly attended A.E.'s (George Russell) weekly study group from the 20's onward and he knew every survivor of the 1890's Celtic revival.He was also a very close friend of Samuel Becket,who once wrote,"For philosophy in Ireland,see Arland Ussher."
Ussher is the only one,aside from Charles Williams and Jack B. Yeats, to realize the existentialist aspect of the GD teachings.
Please check the mid 1980's edition of Regardie's GD.He prints a Hanged Man Ritual from Sothis(Serius) naming R.A.Gilbert as the source.Roger went to Gilbert to confirm this and Gilbert had never heard of it! However,Mr.Gilbert was shortly able to verify that this was indeed a genuine Sothis ritual which featured the Hanged Man portrayed with a rainbow under his head. As Roger had previously correlated the 10 of Cups to the Hanged Man for the Chess-Board arrangement it appears that he was right on.
Then to make things more complex just when it appeared everything was straightening out,Francis King suddenly called Roger(for the first time in twenty years!) for a private meeting and insisted the Regardie Gilbert version was not the authentic ritual.That he held the genuine original version! However there was no disagreement that the Hanged Man was being used by Sothis(a Black Magical organization by the way) as the center of a ritual before Yeats discovered the Celtic Cross reading and equated the geometrical structure of his divinatory device with the structure of the Hanged Man.
Sorry to be late with this.Roger gives us the materials and then we can ask questions(We read the Charles Williams "Greater Trumps" and some of other stories and like them much better than Harry Potter.)Right now he is traveling and we are taking stuff on
the machine and sending it back and forth to him. So when the last message disappeared we had to start over.
 

Teheuti

Roger has not seen any but the Annie Horniman readings from GD and the October 15,1897,George Pollexfen letter.
There are several tarot readings regarding Maud Gonne in Yeats' journal that's at the National Library of Ireland. They use the the first arch spread from the Opening of the Key. I've never seen a reading by Yeats that used the Celtic Cross.

In The Key to the Tarot[\i], Waite introduces his unnamed spread saying:

"I offer in the first place a short process which has been used privately for many years past in England, Scotland and Ireland. I do not think that it has been published—certainly not in connexion with Tarot cards; I believe it will serve all purpose, but I will add—by way of variation—in the second place what used to be known in France as the Oracles of Julia Orsini."
The 'second place' spread is one that requires a rather complex method of laying out the cards, which we don't need to go into here.
 

Cerulean

Marcus Katz has an article on this page 22-42 of the linked article

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...d=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

The "Ancient Celtic Method of Divination" referred to by Waite had additional related notes/spread sample in research papers...the article talks about a spread of cards that is said to be quite related--these are notes by an F. L. Gardner, a Golden Dawn member, as early as 1892 (?)...if I am reading the article right.

I hope that information helps. Both Roger P.'s notes/lectures are mentioned in context when appropriate in the above article and also Mary Greer's Women of the Golden Dawn.

Hope that link works for you.

Cerulean
 

Teheuti

I sent in a response to Marcus' excellent article that he published in the following issue of the Tarosophy Journal. I mention an article in the Occult Review by John Brodie-Innes in which he states that he had learned this 'non-order method' from Florence Farr many years before. Of course, Florence Farr taught the tarot classes and F.L. Gardner worked under her direction in the initiation rituals, so I would think that Farr taught Gardner the technique, much as she taught Brodie-Innes. Where she got it from it is impossible to say. My personal opinion is that it is an adaptation from the similar spread published by 'Minetta' (whoever Minetta was). As a non-order method, the implication is that this was a spread that GD members could use when doing readings for other people who were not initiates.
 

Charles Darnay

Thanks for citing the J.Brodie-Innes article from the Occult Review which we have used many times since the early seventies.It is on line as well as is the first of two Waite's two replies.
Repeat George Pollexfen sent his report to GD head Wynn Wescott on October 15,1897.His nephew who had been GD since the earliest days of the movement and who had been working with Florence since the late eighties or early nineties(It has never been possible to fix an exact date on this historic meeting) was in the house when he wrote it.The GD was therefore not previously using it at all.Unless people were picking it up from Yeats or Florence.

It was in answer to the erroneous paper which you cite that we responded on Roger's behalf .He spent several months deciding whether to reply at this time and place at all.
Roger has been aware of the Gardener references cited in the article for many years.He has spent months in the library in question over a period of years.He does not recollect that the references in question are dated from 1892.However he awaits the author's documentation on this point.
As Roger hasn't been able to check out the names of the people whom Pollexfen mentions
in his letter of October 15,1897,it is uncertain how far back the interviews may date. Pollexfen cites three separate sources plus Mary Battle,his housekeeper,who is featured in Yeats' "Celtic Twilight" written long before 1897. And it was planned a decade earlier.
The Crowleyite writer could easily have contacted Roger if he had --seriously--wished for elucidation before publishing his snide and inaccurate article.
Neither Roger nor we find any profit in conversing with Crowleyites.Tehuti may remember that when she last corresponded with Roger in 2002 he was being plagued by a Crowleyite in the area of Austin,Texas,who brought in at least six partners in intellectual crime to help him out.He finally folded his tent and went away .You have met one of them you have met them all.
Roger has cited very specific documents here and elsewhere showing that from a historical perspective the entire conception that Waite was a Christian mystic as opposed to magicians Mathers and Crowley is completely erroneous.Waite and Crowley are listed in the same line as fellow students under the infamous Theodore Reuss. Waite's code name for that organization was "the present". Roger recently gave a very specific citation
over at the Co-Inherence site.
The Crowley Waite connection was printed by Elic Howe in German("Merlin Redivious")in the early 1980's.Strange with all the Crowley people out there no one in English picked it up til Roger printed it. Nor can he find a single person listed on the web who has chosen
comment on the same.

(off topic) Crowley was,generally speaking, a cheap little copy cat.He certainly belongs in a history of advertising,but not in a Ph.D.on Tarot.Anything significant that Crowley had learned earlier and with far greater accuracy and greater powers of lucid exposition.
Roger(who is writing most of this one himself) well remembers his first meeting with Padraic Colum very late 1965 or early 1966. Padraic quoted Yeats on AC,"In the midst of all that garbage there are ten or twelve lines of genuine poetry." Roger said,"You mean 'The Bells'?" and Colum was immediately his friend .
Donna Luisa Coomeraswamy was likewise a good friend to Roger as were Constantine
Fitzgibbon,and Arthur Power.Michael MacLiamore and Geoffrey Watkins also provided memorable accounts, to name no more. Watkins was the kindest of anyone."He was not so much an evil magician as a bad magician."
Roger,moreover discovered the grandson of one of the two genuinely sane people he ever heard of who really liked Crowley.The last thing the gentleman wants is visits from true believers but he has a wealth of stories and we hope that he will print them himself one day-or have his executors print them.
Grandfather was in show business and used to double in off seasons with a pushcart selling food.Crowley was in the habit, for many years, of stopping by for late evening chats
and perambulations.He left him a copy of Papus's "Tarot of the Bohemians" inscribed in GD code on the inner front leaf.
Crowley(summarize in Roger 's words) was an absolutely fantastic talker and genuinely helpful.Contrary to the public image which he deliberately built for himself,he was fair and fascinating in his evaluations of the many famous(or soon to be famous) people whom he had known.Roger remarked that he had seen reports that he was desperately trying to play up to Florence Farr about the time Waite published his Tarot pack. His informant replied with immediate enthusiasm,"He liked Florence Farr She kept him afraid of her..He was afraid of my grandfather. You had to keep him afraid of you,it was the only way to keep him your friend."
"He was really afraid of Ananda Coomeraswamy,(whom nobody else was ever afraid of)"and Coomeraswamy wouldn't play friends with him."
Grandfather stayed friends for years and valued what he learned about the world from Crowley,but he managed this because he knew that as their rapport grew and Crowley
increasingly reached out for sympathy that he dared not respond.One sign of emotional weakness and Crowley would have turned and rent him.And Crowley liked him as he might well have been helpful to more people had they been willing to show specific backbone.
That's all we have to say about Mr.Crowley.He played,to our knowledge no part whatsoever in the development of Yeats' or Florence Farr's art.He did give valuable evidence on the Yeats-Farr-Waite Tarot feud in his late 20's edition of Magic with interesting and valuable cross-references to private order papers.
Now there is an interesting topic for a Crowley Ph.D. thesis.Perhaps our sarcastic critic would care to augment his research with the publication of these items!
 

Teheuti

Repeat George Pollexfen sent his report to GD head Wynn Wescott on October 15,1897.His nephew who had been GD since the earliest days of the movement and who had been working with Florence since the late eighties or early nineties(It has never been possible to fix an exact date on this historic meeting) was in the house when he wrote it.The GD was therefore not previously using it at all.Unless people were picking it up from Yeats or Florence.
Florence met the 24 year old, W.B. Yeats in April 1889 when her brother-in-law painted Yeats' portrait. Farr's in-laws lived in Bedford Park near the Yeats family. Soon after, Florence played the lead in John Todhunter's play, *A Sicilian Idyll*, which Yeats helped to stage at the Bedford Park playhouse. Later he wrote that he was a "constant caller" at her lodgings, where he described the plays he would someday write her.
 

Charles Darnay

Thanks .We have some reminiscences from Mrs. Pam Good(e) ,John Todhunter's granddaughter for whom Pamela used to babysit in Dublin.
When Roger last asked Warwick Gould for the date of the Yeats Farr first meeting Gould sent back that he had never been able to fix it exactly,Florence "gradually came on the scene" but Roger should have remembered "The Sicilian Idyll" was produced in 1889 .
Perhaps the date is in Mary Greer's book?
By the way in another section here there is a Japanese occult leader called Kenji who seems to be claiming that Pamela was herself the primary creator of the Waite-Ryder Tarot pack. He derives from an organization called Fun which really existed but of which I have never seen a published account.Charles Williams and Thierens both obliquely refer to it and there is an unpublished letter from Lily Yeats that Pamela was not nearly as much fun since converting to Catholicism.In fact she is now rather dull.
Roger hasn't seen the Irish National Collection since 1990.Last time he was in Ireland till the last four weeks.
 

Teheuti

Charles - I'm Mary Greer. I sometimes forget that not everyone knows me by my aeclectic name.

There are quite a few people on aeclectic who see PCS as far more responsible for the deck than Waite. I can certainly understand their pov, although there is no evidence by Smith for any interest in tarot beyond the illustrations for the deck, whereas Waite wrote about tarot and the specific symbolism used in the Major Arcana in different many places, plus he had studied all the other tarot books known at the time. Certainly Smith's images for the Minor Arcana are her own, even if she were illustrating meanings or stories that Waite gave her.
 

Cerulean

Not sure of the question?

I am trying to understand if you are asking for in reference from Kenji?

I know Kenji kindly will answer or sometimes link to a playing card resource if he can, even scan or copy at times from his private collection of his interests in the Golden Dawn and their tarot affiliations. Did you have a reference question on Pamela Colman Smith related to the Celtic Cross or want to start another thread?

I do understand your shyness, so hoping this information helps you feel better.

My correspondence with Kenji recalls a kind and long time fellow fan of tarot history, art and related times. At the latest note, he is friendly with many fans.He might have researched online more about Western esoteric history and translated for Japanese fans. I think the 1909-2009 or 1910-2010 recent anniversary of the Waite Smith deck was more focused on the artist PCS, as less seems to have been known online.

I cannot link to his website thru my phone, but
you can post your question and I can help you locate what your interest is.

Many of the people I meet are teachers, art students, history fans and have good, honest family lives and are gainfully employed as regular folk. I am sorry you had bad experiences sharing your kind notes.

Cocoa and tea and coffee are our normal brew. My experiences are gentle, respectful to those shy and kindly with Kenji and Roppo...their English is very good if you need to converse that way. If you do not
receive an answer for awhile, many of us have busy family responsibilities....I also have work/other commitments, but likely others can help you check on history and Kenji's website links.

Best regards to you. Thank you for your wonderful topics.

Cerulean







Thanks . We have some reminiscences from Mrs. Pam Good(e) ,John Todhunter's granddaughter for whom Pamela used to babysit in Dublin.
When Roger last asked Warwick Gould for the date of the Yeats Farr first meeting Gould sent back that he had never been able to fix it exactly,Florence "gradually came on the scene" but Roger should have remembered "The Sicilian Idyll" was produced in 1889 .
Perhaps the date is in Mary Greer's book?
By the way in another section here there is a Japanese occult leader called Kenji who seems to be claiming that Pamela was herself the primary creator of the Waite-Ryder Tarot pack. He derives from an organization called Fun which really existed but of which I have never seen a published account.Charles Williams and Thierens both obliquely refer to it and there is an unpublished letter from Lily Yeats that Pamela was not nearly as much fun since converting to Catholicism.In fact she is now rather dull.
Roger hasn't seen the Irish National Collection since 1990.Last time he was in Ireland till the last four weeks.