Two Popes/Two Emperors?

le pendu

In a recent post, Ross G Caldwell brought up something that has stuck in my mind since I saw it.

He said
My notion at present is that the Popess did evolve in the tarot deck. At first it would have been two non-descript Popes, distinguished from one another merely by one holding the book and cross, the other holding keys (or whatever); same for the Emperors. Other distinctions found favor over time, including Male-Female. Thus you get an Empress and a Popess, or, to be fair, a female-male imperial pair and a female-male papal pair.
This has brought to my mind a few earlier discussions.
Is the Papess a Man?
The Avignon Papacy
and the 15th century image on the right from the Sacro Subiaco...
Subiaco7.jpg

...showing what the caption for the page describes as
"The portrait on the right shows a pope of the VIIth century, but the XVth century painter did not care about historical accuracy and Agatho I, who died in 681, is crowned with a very nice triregno, the triple crown introduced by Bonifatius VIII (1294-1303)"
I keep coming back to the possibility that the Popess and the Pope show two men, both popes... and wonder.. does that in some way connect to Avignon? Does it show an "Eastern Pope" and "Western Pope"?

And what of the Emperor and Empress? Has the Empress always been shown *clearly* as a woman? Are there examples of two Emperors early in the development of Tarot?

Does the German "Imperatori" fit in here somehow?

What does the Bologna Tarot contribute to this.. if anything?

I realize these are just ponderings... but I sincerely wonder if there is something to the suggestion? Can we find more evidence to support or disprove it?
 

jmd

Nice thread starter there, le pendu.

Although I personally think that early tarot depictions are likely to have been of two (male) popes (or two bishops, which stands to the same), it does not follow that there has to have been two emperors (both male).

Rather, and as example, the Emperor/Empress combination could be 'balanced' (though not gender-wise) by the two adjacent bishops (as is also found in chess, for example).

Of course, early decks in the Visconti-type family did explicitly depict a Pope and a Popess - this is, to my eyes, counter-balanced by what appears to be a clearer representation of two 'popes' or bishops on such (partial) depictions as the Cary Sheet. The fully depicted figure seems like a young male bishop, and the partial figure like an Eastern Orthodox Pope.

In terms of temporal/imperial depictions, to have the Empress/Emperor makes possibly more sense than to have the gender balanced depiction of the sacral/religious pair.

Over time, certainly one of these cards standardises to a Papess (whether as allegorical Church or not).
 

Ross G Caldwell

That's a very nice picture of a rather feminine looking Agatho - thanks for that. I hadn't seen it before.

Yes, the features can be ambiguous, especially on Popes who were generally beardless.

Both Popes in the 17th century Bolognese tarot look youthful and feminine; one Emperor is old, while the other is young, but not distinctly feminine. When Mitelli designed his deck for the Bentivoglio of Bologna around 1650, he distinguished his Emperors by age and posture - one is bearded and sitting, the other is beardless and standing (not feminine looking though); his Popes are both bearded, and are distinguished by sitting or standing.

I think everyone has a guess or even a pet theory about why there are two imperial and two papal figures (as opposed to dealing with them as always four distinct figures).

I think most people view the Bolognese-Florentine tradition as an aberration (if they give it a moments' thought), an early censoring of the Popess. Rosenwald (Florence c. 1500) definitely has a Popess, but the card is entirely missing from the Minchiate. We can't say if Bologna ever represented a Popess - these cards are always called simply collectively "Papi".

But if we imagine for a moment that the southern tradition is the first, then
East-west is a good explanation; maybe it refers to schism in the west (the Great Western Schism of 1378-1417; but not definitively settled until 1449 when Felix V - Amadeus VIII of Savoy and Filippo Maria Visconti's father-in-law - last elected Pope of the Council of Basel - abdicated), or maybe it could refer to the Council of Ferrara-Florence, when both the "pope" of the East, Patriarch Joseph of Constantinople, and the West, pope Eugene IV of Rome, sat down side-by-side.

There weren't two Emperors at the council however; Sigismondo of Hungary had died in 1437, just before the Council began. John Paleologus, Emperor of the East, was there however.

But geo-political and/or social explanations might be misguided. The existence of these four figures might have nothing to do with contemporary history. One explanation I toy with is that these four figures simply add the higher hierarchical figures to the normal deck with court cards, i.e. that their fourfoldness reflects the fourfoldness of the Queens, Kings etc. They are simply higher than kings, and thus join the two packs as bringing *everyone* under the morality of the trump series (subject to fortune and God).

Finally, and still more speculatively, there is the notion that the four Papi are the "fossil" of the Imperatori deck, which provided the inspiration for the tarot trumps. In this hypothesis, the four Imperial-Papal cards were the first "trumps". The fact that the earliest mention of the Imperatori game calls it "8 Emperors", might not mean that there were 8 Emperor cards - tarot was called "7 kings game" (Siebenkönigsspiel) in Germany at one point, which referred to the seven high-scoring cards, 4 Kings, Fool, Bagato, and World. Thus trumps could be called "kings", and by analogy Kings might have been called "Emperors" in an early version of the Emperors game (implying then that the Kings and Emperor-cards scored equally).

The might be a difficulty in this, as the actual "Papi" don't have any point values by themselves in Bologna or Piedmont. But there is something - 3 or four of them form a sequence which is worth points when counting.

So there's plenty of room for speculation here.

If there is a cultural and geo-political reflection of the times in these cards, I think it is certainly that there is a recognition of a balance of opposing secular and religious powers in the world. The equal-papi rule is subtle and profound, when you think of it metaphorically, and I tend to think it is the earliest rule for these cards.
 

Rosanne

Well here is a little bit of laughter for your theory Robert. If it is two Popes, I have an interesting angle on why one in Particular could become The Popessa.
The First so called 'antipope' was Robert of Geneva who took the name Clement V11. Urban V1 was the Pope in Rome his name was Bartolemeo Prignano. When Clement died in 1394 the most antipope of them all was elected. He called himself Benedict X111th. I am trying to find an image for you as he had long black hair and his born name was Pedro de luna. The King of France tried to get both Popes to resign and elect a 'true' Pope. Pedro fought tooth and nail and refused. His image that I have- he has a book on his lap with a Crescent Moon on the Crest lol. Could easily be seen as a woman. ~Rosanne
Edited to add : I forgot to mention the importance of the book- Pedro was a Doctor of Law and Canon Law and he was always pointing out that under Canon Law Urban's Election in Rome was not valid.
 

Rosanne

Whilst trying to find image of Pedro de Luna- I came across some notes on eccesiastical Robes of Medieval Popes.
Card V Le Pape (Hadar) is dressed in Papal Pluviale/Cappa known as a Cope. It is red as was usual for a Pope either fastened at neck or red band across the chest.(red inner and outer)
Card 11 La Papesse (Hadar) on the other hand is wearing a Judicial Robe. Over the Blue Cope is a cape fur trimmed with two bands of fur across the chest. On the head under the tiara is what is called a coif. It was originally worn to hide the tonsure of monks (so no bias in court) In fact the whole vestments that are worn are male on La Papese. The Pallium under the cope or the crossed bands are French- in Rome they were worn hanging straight down.
So looking at the two cards La Papesse is dressed like a Doctor of Canon Law(slate blue, red inner) who is a Pope and Le Pape is dressed like a Pope of Rome.
...and boo hoo I always wanted La Papesse to be Mary Magdalene. So with new eyes I see two Popes. ~Rosanne
 

Attachments

  • TwoPopes.jpg
    TwoPopes.jpg
    84.4 KB · Views: 454

venicebard

Rosanne said:
Card 11 La Papesse (Hadar) on the other hand is wearing a Judicial Robe. Over the Blue Cope is a cape fur trimmed with two bands of fur across the chest. On the head under the tiara is what is called a coif. It was originally worn to hide the tonsure of monks (so no bias in court) In fact the whole vestments that are worn are male on La Papese. The Pallium under the cope or the crossed bands are French- in Rome they were worn hanging straight down.
So looking at the two cards La Papesse is dressed like a Doctor of Canon Law(slate blue, red inner) who is a Pope and Le Pape is dressed like a Pope of Rome.
...and boo hoo I always wanted La Papesse to be Mary Magdalene. So with new eyes I see two Popes. ~Rosanne
Interesting, the Doctor of Canon Law bit. Certainly would reinforce the image of Mother Church, namely that it have standing in law as well as spirit. But we still agree, that the import of the trump is feminine, even if it is in a sense the feminine side of a male institution—female being counter to male as anti-pope is to pope. [For me, the sex of this trump is determined by its being one of the vowels (namely E or 2, autumn’s second thoughts) that fall in the second half of the lunar cycle (U-E-I, full-waning-old), reserved in pagan lore (according to Jacob Grimm) for weaning of children of the female persuasion. It is also possible (probable, from my perspective) that there is some satire intended here, on age turning a man feminine, since V LePape would be B or 5, the newborn year (first or birch month), whereas II LaPapesse is autumn and waning moon, symbolizing the time of life when a woman who had born heirs and thus fulfilled her marital obligation could withdraw into a convent and find peace. Does not Pope with upraised hand signify blessing or cleansing, being given a clean slate? and LaPapesse with her book calm repose, seeking wisdom through reflection?]
 

Rosanne

VeniceBard Hi! Do you not see the pun of Pedro's secular name De Luna and his crest of the cresent Moon below the three tiered Papal tiara? ~Rosanne
 

le pendu

What interesting and informative posts, THANKS!

Rosanne, can you tell me where you found your info? Any pictures you can share?
 

euripides

This page has a small picture of the annointing of Benedict XIII

http://pages.slu.edu/faculty/anderswl/14thc/

ah.... but googling it I've found a pope Benedict XIII who was Piero Francesco Orsini, died in 1730.... ah, but it notes 'at first styled Benedict XIV due to the Antipope Benedict XIII, Pedro de Luna'

I wonder if there is something to do with the church 'schism' here and mixed allegiances. A way of including the 'antipopes' in the deck without the church getting upset.

OMG... there's a lot of them!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope

Regrettably, as much as we'd like to see a balance of masculine and feminine, the reality is that the Tarot is the product of a patriarchal society.... so.....

If this very plausible theory proves correct, or at least solid enough to accept as such, we'd have to totally reconsider our approach to this card.

A short bio of Benedict
http://ecole.evansville.edu/glossary/benedictxiii.html

Euri
 

Rosanne

euripides said:
Regrettably, as much as we'd like to see a balance of masculine and feminine, the reality is that the Tarot is the product of a patriarchal society.... so.....

In another life I was very Catholic and for various reasons I studied Church History with emphasis on it's Pagentry and adaption of motifs, symbols and rites from earlier non Christian belief systems. The sources for these studies were varied and in the main from books and records, not the web. The more I searched, the less Catholic I became in practice. There was a time when Christianity allowed for the Feminine, but History has shown me the hijacking of a balanced belief by the Patriarchal Romans. I am sure Pedro de Luna's Crest is on the web in google images along with his image, as I am not at my home computer to scan info. You probably can find info about Papal Vestments and regalia eccesiastical, there as well. Enjoy , I once did! ~Rosanne
Edited to add: That sounded mealy mouthed of me- I love Tarot and the past study has lead to this- the Joke is the saying "All roads lead to Rome"