Communication and order

chaos

I have found the chaos magick approach to work very well on a practical level .
But don't want to get into that !

Kinda un-thoth tarot like .

I know that this is slightly off topic but it does relate to the ordering of the attributions. I made this post on a different forum today in answer to a question about the double loop in the zodiac that Crowley mentions in The Book of Thoth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


The best way to understand the double loop is to get your Thoth deck out and lay out the zodiacal trumps in a circle following the natural card order.

4. The Emperor - Aries - Tzaddi

5. The Hierophant - Taurus - Vau

6. The Lovers - Gemini - Zain

7. The Chariot - Cancer - Cheth

8. Adjustment - Libra - Lamed

9. The Hermit - Virgo - Yod

11. Lust - Leo - Teth

13. Death - Scorpio - Nun

14. Art - Sagittarius - Samekh

15. The Devil - Capricorn - Ayin

17. The Star - Aquarius - Heh

18. The Moon - Pisces - Qoph

The first thing that you notice is that the Zodiacal and Hebrew letters corresponding to Adjustment (Justice) and Lust (Strength) are out of sequence. Because of this the Golden Dawn (and A.E.Waite) counter-changed the positions of these two cards. This swap around restored the natural order of the Zodiac and the Hebrew letters but it changed the traditional order of the Tarot trumps. With the Thoth deck Crowley kept the traditional order of the Tarot trumps and thus created one loop in the Zodiac. Libra and Leo form a loop around Virgo.

The other loop is created with 4. The Emperor and 17. The Star.

Liber AL 1:57...... All these old letters of my Book are aright; but (Tzaddi) is not the Star.....

Crowley's interpretation of this verse resulted in him swapping the Hebrew letters Heh and Tzaddi. These letter attributions pivot around card 18. The Moon - Pisces, thus making a second loop. So without destroying the traditional sequence of the trumps Crowley managed to create a balanced and symmetrical attribution.

The whole matter is explained perfectly clearly on pages 8, 9 & 10 of The Book of Thoth.

thantifaxath said:

I have found the chaos magick approach to work very well on a practical level .
But don't want to get into that !

Kinda un-thoth tarot like .

Click to expand...

Well, Peter Carrol drew pretty heavily on Crowley's work when he formulated the Chaos Magickal system. And in some ways Crowley's attempts to unify all of the older magickal systems under Thelema was very similar to Carrol's attempts to make Magick more scientific.

Hasn't he changed his mind about a lot of stuff?

Carrol, I mean. I was doing a lot of all that back in the 80's, and I found Carrolls stuff very interesting. But recently I heard he had changed his mind about stuff. And I wondered if anyone knew.

Lillie said:

Hasn't he changed his mind about a lot of stuff?

Click to expand...

He's changed his mind ? Where did you hear that. I've read Carroll's books myself and found them quite interesting. If he's changed his views I'd like to know how and why.

Isn't that the point of the chaos approach ...changing ones mind matters not a jot .

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I read the early stuff.
Liber Null
Psychonaut
Liber chaos (was that it? in the early 90's? Lot's of probability stuff)

Anyhow, recently i was browsing around some pagan forum and someone was talking about him and they said a lot of the stuff he's doing now contradicts his early stuff.

So, I wondered...
As I say, I don't know.

And yes, I suppose that was the point.
Do what works.

But 'fans' never want people to change.
Which is why Robbie Williams still has to sing Angels, even though he is probably sick to the back teeth of it.
And no, I am not a Robbie fan. I was a little too old for take that.
I just saw him recently on TV, so it was in my mind.

From Pete Caroll to Robbie Williams in one thread! Amazing, I don't know how I managed that

From what I have heard Carrol has abandoned Magick for Theoretical Physics and Mathematics. I hadn't heard anything about him discounting his earlier work or anything, just that the Chaos Magickal path had become a bit too strenuous for him and he felt like doing something a bit more conventional.

thantifaxath said:

Isn't that the point of the chaos approach ...changing ones mind matters not a jot .

Click to expand...

Not at all. A big part of the Chaos Magickal approach is the understanding that changing your mind changes the universe.

thantifaxath said:

Crowley states in 'Magick in theory and practice '

We postulate that it is possible to construct a compendium of hieroglyphs sufficiently elastic in meaning to include every possible idea, and that one or more of these may always be taken to represent any idea.

Click to expand...

Then this means that any card can stand for any idea as long as the diviner's mind is willing to accept the meanings he/she himself associates with each card... Then what happens to the embedded triggers inside each card if the meaning itself could be floating across cards? I feel that these triggers would more or less point the diviner to attach the same meaning with the card as the designer intended..

I mean, if The Devil card has certain hidden symbolism that was meant to trigger certain intuitive responses related to 'blockage', 'being tied down' etc., sooner or later the diviner will himself learn to attach such respones with this card. He may go through all the 78 cards, but possibly The Devil card (with its hidden symbolism) will attract him most when he is looking for 'blockage' / 'being tied down'.... But this is not binding on him. He can still choose to attach the same meaning to the Hanged Man or Lovers or ...

Just my 2 cents.

Best wishes,
mm