Ethics of Reading Another's Situation

Zephyros

Magicus Textor said:
Thank you for the link. I had not seen that thread. It was another, but I did not want to call out anyone, and it didn't matter, anyway.

Yes I agree with you. The reason I do Tarot is for higher wisdom, as I've said many times in the past. Even when I do readings for others, I try to bring a larger perspective to it, where this might fit in in their entire life experience, what the bigger lesson is, what karma is being worked out, etc. It's not enough for me to say, "Yes, he loves you" or "no, the relationship won't work." Just feels too empty for me that way.

I respect your view, but don't you think karma and higher wisdom (or the Thelemic "True Will") might very well entail stepping on a few toes now and then? I suppose we are debating the definition of "good."

Unrelated, but say you have a friend who is an emotional vampire, constantly needing you but giving nothing in return, completely draining you in the process. I could and would do a reading about their motives and if I can help them get on their feet, but some people are train wrecks beyond help. Sometimes a relationship has to be unilaterally ended, although the other side would probably not see it as "good" although it may be the healthiest option for you. In this case it would seem what one would define as good karma (in essence, ending an unhealthy situation, distancing yourself from a permanent state of crisis) the other side would describe as the worst. This person could actually be a hindrance to True Will. This example isn't directly related to Tarot, but to the flexibility of what we would define as right or wrong.

The Thoth Tarot Justice (called Adjustment) shows a woman balancing on her toes, implying that harmony and balance aren't stagnant and immobile, but constantly shifting and swaying to reflect tides and circumstances. If I read, I do it because it may benefit me, however that may be the case, however always keeping in mind that I may not interfere with another's orbit of their own (keeping them from achieving their own True Will), as that will only interfere with mine. This is why I say ethics are never set in stone but dynamic and ever changing to fit the circumstances.

Magicus Textor

closrapexa said:
I respect your view, but don't you think karma and higher wisdom (or the Thelemic "True Will") might very well entail stepping on a few toes now and then? I suppose we are debating the definition of "good."

It depends on the circumstances. If I am doing what I do, but someone becomes hurt by it because of their own misinterpretation, then I do not consider it my responsibility.

But reading for someone else, who is none of my business, is something different entirely.

closrapexa said:
Unrelated, but say you have a friend who is an emotional vampire, constantly needing you but giving nothing in return, completely draining you in the process. I could and would do a reading about their motives and if I can help them get on their feet, but some people are train wrecks beyond help. Sometimes a relationship has to be unilaterally ended, although the other side would probably not see it as "good" although it may be the healthiest option for you. In this case it would seem what one would define as good karma (in essence, ending an unhealthy situation, distancing yourself from a permanent state of crisis) the other side would describe as the worst. This person could actually be a hindrance to True Will. This example isn't directly related to Tarot, but to the flexibility of what we would define as right or wrong.

No, I would not do a reading. I would offer my hehlp, and if they rejected it, then I would not do anything, because it is their own true Will that they are dealing with.

It will only affect me if I allow it to affect me. It can only hinder my true Will if I allow it to do so.

If I am being the person I am being, then that person will either join me or not, but it is up to them, not me. I will likely not break it off, because I have noticed that when I am being who i am truly, then people will either be attracted to that or not, based on the lessons they need right now, and either way, it is OK.

closrapexa said:
The Thoth Tarot Justice (called Adjustment) shows a woman balancing on her toes, implying that harmony and balance aren't stagnant and immobile, but constantly shifting and swaying to reflect tides and circumstances. If I read, I do it because it may benefit me, however that may be the case, however always keeping in mind that I may not interfere with another's orbit of their own (keeping them from achieving their own True Will), as that will only interfere with mine. This is why I say ethics are never set in stone but dynamic and ever changing to fit the circumstances.

Yes, I agree it is in constant flux, but again that does not justify certain actions that I see, for myself, as unethical. Not to mention that if I am doing what I should be doing, I have no need to read someone else. Again, they cannot interfere with my own orbit, so why bother?

GotH

Why not? If the cards choose to give possible insight to people then I feel it's there for us to utitilze. We all know that sometimes the cards do not give us info on someone or something, THAT'S when I feel it's a clue that it's not meant for us to know or "none of our business" as some would say. I think being able to get insight on people is a special gift that the tarot gives us or it wouldn't be possible and that's what's so alluring to me at times. I do believe it's our responsibility to not take advantage of this information though.

Just my two pennies.

Magicus Textor

Goddessofthehunter said:
Why not? If the cards choose to give possible insight to people then I feel it's there for us to utitilze. We all know that sometimes the cards do not give us info on someone or something, THAT'S when I feel it's a clue that it's not meant for us to know or "none of our business" as some would say. I think being able to get insight on people is a special gift that the tarot gives us or it wouldn't be possible and that's what's so alluring to me at times. I do believe it's our responsibility to not take advantage of this information though.

Just my two pennies.

Just a few things to think about. It is fine if you agree or not, but just want to share some thoughts:

When ready insight is so available to us, can it not be tempting to use it in ways that are not proper to us?

Just because it is there, does not mean that it is right for us to use it. There are countless stories of people who have come into great supernatural power or ability in one way or another— perhaps naturally, perhaps taught by a yogi or master, etc— who misuse it for things they should not be using it for, and thus it is taken away from them.

Just because we have Tarot, or have intuition— whatever it might be— does that mean we should be able to use it for anything we can use it for?

Sometimes I think that it can become a bit of a crutch to avoid growing and learning the spiritual lessons that we must learn. Some use it to obtain forewarning for every little thing that might happen in life, and begin to depend on it for everything, thereby not learning the lessons and not overcoming the obstacles that they must experience in life.

I have come across the situation where I have given someone a reading, helped them to see the lessons that they must learn through the situation, and then they come back to me soon after for another reading because they are responding out of fear of the situation, or distrust that they can get through it, and react by needing to know exactly what the future will bring. In such circumstances, I deny their request for a reading, because I do not feel it is in their highest good to have another reading done.

In my own view, we are not only purveyors of occult information, but teachers of wisdom, guides and advisers. We carry a heavy burden— a weighty responsibility— to use these skills for the highest good of all.

Similarly just my $0.019.

Zephyros

Magicus Textor said:
Just a few things to think about. I don't care if you agree or not:

When ready insight is so available to us, can it not be tempting to use it in ways that are not proper to us?

Just because it is there, does not mean that it is right for us to use it. There are countless stories of people who have come into great supernatural power or ability in one way or another— perhaps naturally, perhaps taught by a yogi or master, etc— who misuse it for things they should not be using it for, and thus it is taken away from them.

Just because we have Tarot, or have intuition— whatever it might be— does that mean we should be able to use it for anything we can use it for?

Sometimes I think that it can become a bit of a crutch to avoid growing and learning the spiritual lessons that we must learn. Some use it to obtain forewarning for every little thing that might happen in life, and begin to depend on it for everything, thereby not learning the lessons and not overcoming the obstacles that they must experience in life.

I have come across the situation where I have given someone a reading, helped them to see the lessons that they must learn through the situation, and then they come back to me soon after for another reading because they are responding out of fear of the situation, or distrust that they can get through it, and react by needing to know exactly what the future will bring. In such circumstances, I deny their request for a reading, because I do not feel it is in their highest good to have another reading done.

In my own view, and again I'm just sharing this, it doesn't matter who agrees or not, we are not only purveyors of occult information, but teachers of wisdom, guides and advisers. We carry a heavy burden— a weighty responsibility— to use these skills for the highest good of all.

Similarly just my $0.019.

Of course you are sharing, that is the definition of a debate, no need to get defensive.

But the responsibility is invoked when actually giving someone a reading, and then I do my best to give them the best reading I can, not lie to them and not manipulate them through the information I impart. If I have no desire to help them, I won't read for them, in essence, I wouldn't read for someone I dislike. The responsibility isn't an issue if I am with myself. I didn't sign a Tarot reader's pact; no one gave me my so-called "ability" on a contingency basis, and I certainly don't see myself as either an example or as a role model. If I were an example, I would prefer to be a bad one, as what not to do, much less responsibility that way. I am an advisor only when actually advising, not when using my own knowledge for my own advantage. I am also not Jesus and feel the need to love and sacrifice myself for my fellow man; I study Tarot for myself, which is actually why I'm not too fond of reading for others. As to spiritual lessons, well, I don't feel I'm perverting them as much as the spiritual lesson of doing a reading on how to get a Porsche is that you don't need one in order gain spirituality. Self-sacrifice and only using what you have for others is a Christian concept, one I don't buy into.

And just to be clear, by my advantage I hardly mean taking over the world or committing genocide or anything as dramatic as that.

Grizabella

I think you can use your cards for whatever purpose you choose to use them for. I don't know anyone here who uses them for nefarious purposes among the regular users of the forum. I think we all use them for the greater good. But don't forget, though, that the "greater good" is a different idea for some than for others.

I came back to add a couple of things. For one thing, my gift of reading the cards and being given to know was given by my Creator. But I am not the Creator. My belief is that people are sent to cross my path, whether just walking down the street or to ask me for a reading, even if it's a repeat reading on the same topic. No matter what contact we have, there will be a result of some sort. If a person asks me for more information, that's no accident and I'll try to help them find their answers, even if I've already read for them before on the subject. It isn't up to me to decide whether they "should" get further information or not. As I said, I'm not God/Creator so who am I to decide? They wouldn't seek me out if I weren't meant to help them. To an extent, I can make some determinations about how the reading is worded and I need to do my best to help them in the best way, but playing God isn't what I'm about. Some people need to ask the same questions over and over again in order to finally "get it". But in the process of asking over and over again, we're interacting with each other and it's probably the interaction that's equally important to or more so than the question getting asked multiple times.

YDM42

Ok- I want to understand how some of people who believe we are all one, can even believe that the other has an absolute right to what is obviously not his to begin with. I believe all our thoughts, actions and feelings affect others, sometimes in way that we dont know about. Therefore I believe that what we are reading is energy. That energy can not be isolated, or owned. I also know that when someone is feeling a certain way about me, I can not only sense it, but unconsciously I respond to it on some level. Sometimes the best I can do is try to narrow down where that energy is coming from so I can correct it, address it or sending healing or positive energy in that direction. Sometimes my thoughts are on a person and I dont know why, later on I find out that person was thinking of me or missing me, or even feeling anger towards me. Not all the time is it useful to know, but the point Im trying to make is that giving someone ownership of something they didn't create and cant own, and then calling it ethics....is weird. If that is the case - then it is unethical to even use the cards to discern anything, that is not open and obvious or presented to us. The past is the past, it BELONGS to the past, the future is the Future, it belongs to the future, all we have is the Present time and its temporary, so is it unethical to delve into anything that is not ours?

prudence

closrapexa said:
I do it sometimes, I have no problem with it. I don't think it is like eavesdropping or spying on them at all. Tarot may be the key to wisdom, but that wisdom isn't necessarily external societal ethics. As to intention, it depends on what you do with what you get, not on getting it in the first place, at least not getting it in this very specific fashion. My only caveat is that as with all readings, the information can be skewed, and I have no way of ascertaining if it is exact, so I never fully rely on this or any other type of reading.

I have no set code of ethics regarding Tarot or magick. I try to be a good person, whatever that means, and make up the rules as I go along. I don't think I'm a bad person, just pragmatic.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

For me though, reading on any subject is my main objective, and when you are always looking for new things to read about (because you're practicing with a new deck or what have you) you may find yourself reading about another person's situation. I prefer subjects that will have a known outcome, or at least an outcome that I will know about, so I can compare my tarot reading and see how well I did or not. No one gets hurt, no information is used in any way that would affect anyone involved. No one is even aware of it other than me. And as far as karma goes, well, I am not a Buddhist so I tend to treat the idea of Karma as I would the idea of Sin or "Thetans"....interesting concepts from religions of which I am not a follower/participant.

Magicus Textor

YDM42 said:
Ok- I want to understand how some of people who believe we are all one, can even believe that the other has an absolute right to what is obviously not his to begin with. I believe all our thoughts, actions and feelings affect others, sometimes in way that we dont know about. Therefore I believe that what we are reading is energy. That energy can not be isolated, or owned. I also know that when someone is feeling a certain way about me, I can not only sense it, but unconsciously I respond to it on some level. Sometimes the best I can do is try to narrow down where that energy is coming from so I can correct it, address it or sending healing or positive energy in that direction. Sometimes my thoughts are on a person and I dont know why, later on I find out that person was thinking of me or missing me, or even feeling anger towards me. Not all the time is it useful to know, but the point Im trying to make is that giving someone ownership of something they didn't create and cant own, and then calling it ethics....is weird. If that is the case - then it is unethical to even use the cards to discern anything, that is not open and obvious or presented to us. The past is the past, it BELONGS to the past, the future is the Future, it belongs to the future, all we have is the Present time and its temporary, so is it unethical to delve into anything that is not ours?

I see what you are getting at here. However, if I ask you for your SSN, will ou give it? It is something you have not created and do not own.

Yes, we are all one, but we are all on our own path as well, and are responsible for only ourselves.

When I was attuned to Reiki, my Reiki teacher told me never to do healing without permission. Healing seems to be something that is always for the highest good, but people have a right over themselves, their soul, their life, and their own karma. If they do not desire healing, then I must allow them to work through the lessons on their own, and respect that. I can love them with unconditional Love, as should be done always, but that is all that I can do. This is what I teach to my students as well.

I think thelesson is the same in reading someone, but even more important. I see reading someone without permission as a violation of their soul/energy. They have the right to release what they wish to release to whom they wish to release it.

I say a prayer before every reading that I do. I say, may the wisdom of the Universe be unlocked to me, but should it not be for the highest good of all involved, then may I be misled, that no violation may occur.

prudence

Magicus Textor said:
I see reading someone without permission as a violation of their soul/energy.

If this were my own belief, I would hold the same opinion about reading for others without their permission that you do. I would feel quite strongly about it.

But, this is not how I see it at all. I do not believe it is a violation of anyone's soul/energy. I respect your belief in this notion though and that you are able to share your feelings about it with us, without telling any of us on the other side of the debate that we are wrong.

Ethics of Reading Another's Situation

Zephyros

Magicus Textor

GotH

Magicus Textor

Zephyros

Grizabella

YDM42

prudence

Magicus Textor

prudence