Analytic Tarot and working as an atheist

JackofWands

Wow... What a wealth of information here. I'm not really sure where to start responding, but let's dive in.

I know very little about Thelema, so I enjoyed reading all of the links that Ravenest shared. It's definitely interesting to see how it contains the structural elements of religion and group ritual--as well as individual ritual action, in the form of the meditation and astral travel (possibly not the correct phrase, but the document seemed to me to be describing a similar process, if devoid of literal belief that a practitioner travels on a spiritual plane)--without relying too much on literalism. Thank you for the info.

I've heard the argument of "belief as a tool" before from chaos magicians, and I think it's a really interesting one, although I personally have never been able to apply the doctrine. (And one thing that everyone agrees on is that without belief, magick is doomed to fail.) One question I would ask of you, Ravenest, and of any other magicians of a similar persuasion who are reading this thread: How far does this belief extend with regards to the effects of a magickal working? Do you believe that through the "ritual drama" (beautiful phrase) of magick, you're actually able to effect a change in the outside world? And moreover--more interestingly--do you believe this even when you're not in the act of ritual working? I could see how, for the purposes of a ritual, you would need to wear the mask of belief, but (if this is true) do you abandon that mask outside of ritual and view the world from a more naturalistic perspective, or do you fundamentally believe that magick works?

Coming to this idea of "ritual drama" and approaching religion or Tarot reading as theatre, I think it has interesting implications in light of the various schools of thought on the nature of acting. You have the old school (e.g. Laurence Olivier) of actors who saw what they did as a craft, and carefully selected every gesture and inflection of their voices to produce a certain effect; but later, you have Stanislavsky's method and even the Brechtian model of theatre, both of which had very different views on what the goal of theatre was and how to accomplish it. In this sense, I really like the theatrical analogy, but I think that even so, it leaves a lot of room for interpretation regarding how (and why) one should perform.
 

Zephyros

Do you believe that through the "ritual drama" (beautiful phrase) of magick, you're actually able to effect a change in the outside world? And moreover--more interestingly--do you believe this even when you're not in the act of ritual working?

Allow me to answer in metaphor. :)

In Star Wars we are told that Emperor Palpatine is very powerful, but we never see his "actual" power until he shoots lightning from his fingers. So, if we can assume he didn't take over the galaxy with that, then how did he? The answer, as I see it, is that he may have had "supernatural" power but it meant little if that power did not translate to personal power. In other words, he still had to be elected Chancellor and affect the galaxy on a mundane level.

If you try to do this, then you're a fool, and nothing will help you. However, if you carry out magick as an aid in helping you find your True Will then the internal can translate to the external. Because it was the Palpatine's True Will to become emperor, everything he did contributed to that, and the Force was a conduit to help him make the correct choices to further that end. Bringing this back to Tarot, I, too believe that any draw is random. However, because I also believe that Tarot is complete symbolic map, and that in any given situation the entire deck is present in varying degrees, then any card I draw will show me an aspect of the situation and allow me to observe and analyze it. It is magick, according to Crowley's definition that magick is "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." This can be a ritual, or it can be eating a sandwich. Everyone is a magician, just not everyone knows it.

Why should you study and practice Magick? Because you can't help doing it, and you had better do it well than badly. Magick Without Tears

Of course, Palpatine was brutally assassinated in the end, so go figure. If he did a Tarot reading, he was probably off that day.
 

JackofWands

Because it was the Palpatine's True Will to become emperor, everything he did contributed to that, and the Force was a conduit to help him make the correct choices to further that end. Bringing this back to Tarot, I, too believe that any draw is random. However, because I also believe that Tarot is complete symbolic map, and that in any given situation the entire deck is present in varying degrees, then any card I draw will show me an aspect of the situation and allow me to observe and analyze it. It is magick, according to Crowley's definition that magick is "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." This can be a ritual, or it can be eating a sandwich. Everyone is a magician, just not everyone knows it.

That's a beautiful analogy. Thank you very much for helping me understand what magick is to you and how it relates to the way you read Tarot. I particularly like the view that "in any given situation the entire deck is present in varying degrees" and that a Tarot reading "will show me [you] an aspect of the situation and allow me to observe and analyze it". That's actually quite in line with the way I view the cards, too.
 

Zephyros

Now, you could also look at it from another angle. The idea of interconnection was mentioned a few posts back. I find interesting similarities between the Tree of Life and the accepted theory of the Big Bang. In the beginning, the universe was a singularity smaller than a subatomic particle. It was in a state of chaos having infinite mass and infinite density, with the laws of physics as we know them not even existing inside (not even the law of conservation of matter). To me this sounds like Keter, the infinitely contracted point, being nothing but Being and potential. Then came the expansion, the force of Chochma that simultaneously created the space of Binah. Even if you had a spaceship fast enough to reach it in a reasonable amount of time, you still couldn't visit the site of the Big Bang, because you would run out of space before you even got there.

This isn't to say I believe Kabbalists knew about the Big Bang, I am simply speaking of one model through the terminology of another. Neither model requires the intervention of a deity, yet one is scientific while the other is spiritual. This is to illustrate how the universe can be looked at not as a collection of separate entities, but one big "thing." You hold out your finger, you're touching dark matter that exists throughout the universe, and so you're touching the nose of some alien billions of light years away. When time and space don't exist or matter, as is inside a infinitely dense singularity, size is relative, meaningless and nonexistent simultaneously, despite the contradiction. The universe isn't big, we're just small, and everything is still inside the primordial Keter (which could be an answer to Babalon Jones' contest, how is Keter in Malkuth!). Chaos theory suggests that complex systems behave unexpectedly, and that small events can have cumulative effects on the stability of the system as a whole. A butterfly flaps its wings and on the other side of the globe, this, indirectly perhaps, causes a thunderstorm. Seen from that angle, the idea of a myriad of events affecting the draw of a deck of cards would be a satisfying assumption to make, even if I wouldn't write a scientific thesis about it.
 

Poor Wandering One

YES !

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i268/Itzlzha/applause.gif

Now ... when you are an actor (or being a magician working the 3rd path {note its adverse effects; fanatacism } - see magick and Yoga section http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016.html - its VERY brief - in something like Liber Astarte ... or assumption of God forms, or even 'assumption of Tarot majors' ) on stage or 'in the circle' you cant be an actor ... you are the character (if you are a good actor) but you aren't really the character ... getting lost in the character is like adopting a religion (for a magician) ... the magical invocation of the 'character' (or 'worship' ) is more effective on multiple planes and hence, more 'dangerous'.

Which leads to 'ritual drama' the most potent of magical ceremonies ; it is utilized strongly in initiation (where you may be unaware. at first, which character you are or what is an appropriate response, so learning and teaching is attempted to be emulated by copying a 'life process' of learning (by mimicking certain events. perhaps from mythology, and learning on multiple levels how to respond).

Then there is ritual drama where roles are previously known understood and acted out , in some cases, as liturgical religious ritual and in other cases as dramatic ritual (one of the oldest and primeval magical forms).

I did multiple series of these over a period of 7 years (when we had a working group) - fantastic ! With proper resources and multiple performances you cab change roles and characters and experience the stories on multiple levels and viewpoints ... some characters repeat and re-emerge in different plays and you can act those ones and progress through the series of plays : planets " mythological themes and down the Tree of Life Sephiroth - great stuff

POOR WANDERING ONE ... do check these out :

http://hermetic.com/crowley/the-rites-of-eleusis/

[ And just think ... all this stuff has its specifically designed own Tarot deck to go with it ! :) ]

Thank you for the links. This makes a lot of sense to me. (I still can't say that I'm much of a fan of the Crowley Thoth deck, though. I admire it more than I like it--which is pretty much the kiss of death as far I'm concerned. I don't feel inspired by it--it doesn't "speak" to me.)

In theater, you're always still "you" (whoever that is) but you "become" the character for the duration of the performance. A teacher of mine once said that you don't so much lose yourself in a role as you find yourself in one. That struck me as very apt.

In retrospect, I don't suppose it was a coincidence that I put the magic away when I gave up the theater as a pursuit. I may be able to do as I will--but I have no idea how or why I will what I will. For instance, I don't know what it is that was the trigger for me to start reading about tarot and esoterica again after a nearly two-decade dormancy.

This time around, though, I'm looking at it from a different perspective and with a great deal of healthy skepticism. I'm far more discerning now than I was--and I think that's a good thing.
 

JackofWands

Now, you could also look at it from another angle. The idea of interconnection was mentioned a few posts back. I find interesting similarities between the Tree of Life and the accepted theory of the Big Bang. In the beginning, the universe was a singularity smaller than a subatomic particle. It was in a state of chaos having infinite mass and infinite density, with the laws of physics as we know them not even existing inside (not even the law of conservation of matter). To me this sounds like Keter, the infinitely contracted point, being nothing but Being and potential. Then came the expansion, the force of Chochma that simultaneously created the space of Binah. Even if you had a spaceship fast enough to reach it in a reasonable amount of time, you still couldn't visit the site of the Big Bang, because you would run out of space before you even got there.

This isn't to say I believe Kabbalists knew about the Big Bang, I am simply speaking of one model through the terminology of another. Neither model requires the intervention of a deity, yet one is scientific while the other is spiritual. This is to illustrate how the universe can be looked at not as a collection of separate entities, but one big "thing." You hold out your finger, you're touching dark matter that exists throughout the universe, and so you're touching the nose of some alien billions of light years away. When time and space don't exist or matter, as is inside a infinitely dense singularity, size is relative, meaningless and nonexistent simultaneously, despite the contradiction. The universe isn't big, we're just small, and everything is still inside the primordial Keter (which could be an answer to Babalon Jones' contest, how is Keter in Malkuth!). Chaos theory suggests that complex systems behave unexpectedly, and that small events can have cumulative effects on the stability of the system as a whole. A butterfly flaps its wings and on the other side of the globe, this, indirectly perhaps, causes a thunderstorm. Seen from that angle, the idea of a myriad of events affecting the draw of a deck of cards would be a satisfying assumption to make, even if I wouldn't write a scientific thesis about it.

I'll admit that this ventures a bit too far for my taste, but to each their own. If the system works for you and you find meaning in it, that's the most important thing, and I really do appreciate your sharing even though I'm not fully on board with your view.
 

Zephyros

I actually was not trying to make a point. :)

I was just illustrating how secular ideas can be adapted to spiritual doctrines, and vice versa. I'm not sure I myself accept or believe in of it, but from a spiritual point of view, it makes for some nice contemplation.
 

ravenest

I've heard the argument of "belief as a tool" before from chaos magicians, and I think it's a really interesting one, although I personally have never been able to apply the doctrine.

It is a view held by anthropology and comparative religion : I think Anthropologists John Monoghan and Peter Just stated it best; "It seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

(And one thing that everyone agrees on is that without belief, magick is doomed to fail.) One question I would ask of you, Ravenest, and of any other magicians of a similar persuasion who are reading this thread: How far does this belief extend with regards to the effects of a magickal working? Do you believe that through the "ritual drama" (beautiful phrase) of magick, you're actually able to effect a change in the outside world?

Sometimes. But who can tell ? More importantly it is about change and expansion and balance in consciousness ... however that can effect the hard stuff <knocks on table> is a matter of philosophical debate. I believe, at times, it can. If 'outward reality' can be modified by consciousness (eg, I am nervous , I might be prone to accidents, when I have confidence .. 'magically' ... things can work out better for me ) whether this is internal or external is really not the point (as pointed out in Liber O ).

I know it is a hard one to drop ... I would love to be able to wave my wand an win the lotto :laugh: but in more than one tradition (yoga, taoism, etc ) siddhis are known to be inadvertent manifestations , not something to seek or be fascinated with.

From one yoga perspective; http://www.ananda.org/ask/the-danger-of-siddhis-yogic-powers/

and generally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

But lets look at a 'successful operation' ; how do I know it would not have happened anyway if I didnt do the operation? The only way is to go back in time and not do it and see what happened and then compare the two time streams - impossible exercise.

My stand is this; I wanted to end a stupid fight between two people I like, and they couldnt seem to reconcile. So I did a 'working on it'. They reconciled are now happy. Did my working do it or not?

Who cares ? I dont, my friends are happy again !

However I do know I can effect a change in the 'outside world' if we consider other people 'the outside world' - that is what an initiation ceremony is about. Whether they 'imagine it' or not ... they change ! (Again, not all operations are successful , some fail and some people fail initiation (like Hercules ;) ) .

Often, coming up against a barrier in themselves they cant or dont want to get over, through fear or past conditioning, they can fail ... and then, of course, they consider the whole thing a sham ... and are often outspoken against the system and people ... we have had one or two like that here.


And moreover--more interestingly--do you believe this even when you're not in the act of ritual working?

Yes. Eventually.

Hard to explain ... but it is a BIT like this; Many Suns ago ..... :) ...

I started Aikido training (and already had other martial arts 'under my belt' ) , eventually, I stated to get better in class, and when doing all the formal exercises and drills. After a while my centre of gravity, gait, and movement started to change. Eventually that spread to my demeanor and outlook. My confidence in my own abilities changed (and people can perceive that, even sometimes when they are not aware of that). Also, due to other things I was learning about, people were picking up those 'messages' consciously or not.

It started all working for me out of the training hall and in areas where I wasnt doing martial arts ... it was immensely helpful in my work in the hospital (as I was required to often be an 'orderly' amongst sick, confused, psychiatrically disturbed, or drug and alcohol induced violence. I had a 'knack' ... I laso have it with animals and plants (I am told) .

Some things ( practices, rituals etc) I did for years ... with little results ... a bit like a tree growing ... then ... one year COVERED in fruit !

I could see how, for the purposes of a ritual, you would need to wear the mask of belief, but (if this is true) do you abandon that mask outside of ritual and view the world from a more naturalistic perspective, or do you fundamentally believe that magick works?

Well, I believe it works according to my definition of magick - but dont ask me to prove it by waving a wand over your lotto ticket.

As far as learning about masks and wearing them outside ritual ... that is also a big part and also a part of the reason for doing it.

Innocent people are in danger ! Slip into Mars ... . Shattered refugees move into your area ... put on the mask of compassion, etc ... they are masks but they reside in us as parts of our psyche - a tool kit ... to be stuck with one or two might make it inappropriate. They can be based on a variety of things ... the 12 astrological signs (all aspects of our own character, not types of other people) ... even archetypes from drama ( Robert Johnstone wrote a GREAT book on male development and archetypes using the models of Hamlet, Don Juan and Faust) ... but all this is hard to understand when we have have false concepts of 'self'.
Coming to this idea of "ritual drama" and approaching religion or Tarot reading as theatre, I think it has interesting implications in light of the various schools of thought on the nature of acting. You have the old school (e.g. Laurence Olivier) of actors who saw what they did as a craft, and carefully selected every gesture and inflection of their voices to produce a certain effect; but later, you have Stanislavsky's method and even the Brechtian model of theatre, both of which had very different views on what the goal of theatre was and how to accomplish it. In this sense, I really like the theatrical analogy, but I think that even so, it leaves a lot of room for interpretation regarding how (and why) one should perform.

AH! 'Why?'

The 'scientific illuminist' approach to magick ... is such an approach.

Do you remember your old science experiments from school, how you wrote them up in sections ? (Well in school here anyway) one has headings for ALL experiments done' apparatus, method, observations, results, conclusions ... the first one, we were taught, that was at the top of the list ; AIM ... clearly outline the aim of the experiment.

Unfortunately most of us just get led along by 'unseen' forces and conditionings ... without clear aim ... many people dont even know what the aim of their life is ! (What a tragedy! ) .

Some do magic to see if it works or to see something 'supernatural' or gain siddhis (oh dear ! ) ... oaky it IS an 'aim' ... but it is a bit like the 'aim' in one kid's science book ; "to blow up the chemistry lab' .... :laugh: - ya gotta watch them !