Sun on the Death Card

rainwolf

koulla said:
To me the death card brings temporary darkness and therefore with it a Sunrise, bringing with it it new opportunities and horizons, so yes I would agree, it is a rising
With new opportunities and horizons, why would the next cards be the devil and tower? And why would the sun follow after that if it already arose?

I still think the cards in between death and the sun indicate that it is setting so the actions of temperance, devil, tower, star, and moon can take place. It kills the ego in a material sense, and then slowly kills the mind until it reaches the sun. What is left over stays.
 

Chiara

Each card represents a different type of energy. According to the science of physics, energy is totally impartial. Whether the sun on the Death card is rising or setting is dependent on its position and the cards that influence it. It is how each of us view it, or how each of us use the energy. We all would like it to be rising, but wishing it doesn't always make it so. If we refuse to "let something die" so that we can be "re-born"; then the sun sets for us. If we are able to "let that something die"; our sun rises. We are re-born.
 

Tree Sprite

The King is dead, long live the king!

For me, the death card refers back to a longer tradition of regularly (and often ritually) 'renewing' the king to ensure his strength and ability to lead. (J.G. Frazer's Golden Bough is a wonderful reference) Look at the figure under the feet of the horse - an ermine cloak and crown thrown to one side. The Bishop or Hierophant on hand to administer the ritual of passing, and the subjects gathered to witness such an important ceremony. With the passing of the old king, the sun rises on a new reign, which will only last as long as the strength and ability of the incumbent to protect.
 

ultimatefortune

Power to the people

I like to think of it as the cards giving a boost in power to each other, connecting and strengthing them, with the case of death and sun i feel it can be either the beginning of a long and painful tragedy and the opposite end which would be the end of a very apathetic pain
 

lucifall

all our journey

Exactly,
dead is just something you have to accept and where you have to live with.
Believing in reincarnation change nothing to the fact of the pain it serves you.

I just lost a beloved one in a horrible way. Today i figured out the following. She already has gone into the cave somewhere on her road through the darkness. When you take a clear look to the card you see it is impossible to reach the way through the towers towards the sun. The mountain with waterfall is first. No way that you will climb that. The only way is with the boat to the otherside. Greeks for example still let themselves burried in their graves with a coin in their mouth to pay the ferryman that will help them to pass the river. When we come on the other side of the river we will have to find our way to make it possible for ourselves to proceed the journey.
Then follow the arrow to the cave, and there the journey in the underworld will start. Through the underworl you will rise and come up through the hill and the path which lead through the sun. You will pass the towers and see the sun setting because afterwards the way is still long.
For the people which stay in this state, on earth, we can filosofize about the rising or setting sun. Either way is good, No way is bad. We all know, one thing for sure, we all will make that journey and experience the sunset and sunrise in a state which we all know from the old days, but what will be always a new road, which you have to make with your own new experienced knowledge and wisdom, all alone..........


lucifall
 

GlitterNova

Excuse me for the necropost, but I just received the PCS commemorative deck set and I'm quite excited to post some my thoughts. When I saw this card I had the same question about the sun. Ultimately I decided that I thought it was rising. The fact that it's directly above the Pope as he prepares for his death makes me think of it as a symbol for the Pope's soul as it rises out of his body and into the heavens. Especially since the Pope's robes are yellow like the sun.
 

Ruby Jewel

Sun is Rising

Hi Ravenest,

When you look at the Papus layout according to "Tarot of Bohemians", you will see that the sun is rising. Look at the last/3rd septenary that begins with Death (13) and ends with the Moon (18). That is the septenary of what is quite obviously, as I like to call it, The Dark Night of the Soul, or the Night Sea Journey (through the last septenary). The next card after the Moon (18) is none other than the Sun (19).....because he has made it through the "dark night" of the last septenary....thus, the Fool has emerged into the daylight at last with the sun definitely rising in the last ternary made up of Judgement and lastly The World......obviously transformed.
 

Zephyros

I really don't know if Papus is relevant to the RWS, actually. He derived his ideas from older traditions and a different Tree of Life. That being said, Paul Foster Case says of the sun on the Fool:

Paul Foster Case said:
Always it faces unknown possibilities of self-expression, transcending any height it might have reached at a given time. On this account the sun behind the traveller is at an angle of forty-five degrees in the eastern heaven, as Swedenborg says the celestial sun remains forever in the spiritual world. The spiritual sun never reaches its zenith, for from the zenith it would have to descend, and the idea here intended is that infinite energy can never reach a point in manifestation whence it must begin to decrease in power. On this account, too, the Fool faces North-West, toward a direction which, for Masonic and other occult reasons, has for millenniums been symbolic of the unknown, and of the state just prior to the initiation of a creative process

In the symbolic language of the RWS, the Sun usually symbolizes infinite energy and power that is always rising. Even in Death, what dies is the ego, the consciousness, but the essence always remains. Unfortunately, on Death, Waite is more cryptic than usual, but he does mention perpetual movement.

In other words, it is rising, but not because of the dawn, but because it is always rising.
 

Ruby Jewel

Hi Closrapexa,

Very interesting take there. i have a Paul Foster Case book, and it will be interesting to look that up your reference, again. Actually I vaguely remember reading it once, but it has been awhile now. It seems to me there was so much dissension and competition between those guys in the Golden Dawn, it is hard to distill a particular "truth" out of it all, but I find it all fascinating, nonetheless. Just as I do this forum.

My "assumption" is simply based on the Papus layout of the cards in the his "Tarot of the Bohemians". I personally see a story unfolding in that layout that culminates in a "new day" for the Fool after having traversed the so-called underworld of cards 13 through 18. The quote from Paul Foster Case above is a confirmation of that it seems.

So, now I have to ask, what about the 10 of Swords? I have a always wondered whether the sun is rising or setting there. I have always interpreted it as rising as the fellow looks rather "done in." After all, one doesn't want to take away all hope from the querent. Still I have a lingering reservation as to just exactly how to interpret the sun in that card.
 

Zephyros

Thank you. :)

Unfortunately, I think I was wrong. As Tehuti mentioned, the cycle of life and rebirth was important to Waite, and I was somewhat transposing Thelemic/Thoth doctrine where it didn't belong. Waite would no doubt have followed the older IAO formula, not the updated one Crowley used. So it may actually be setting.

As for the Ten of Swords, it looks like pre-dawn to me, with the sun just peeking over the horizon. This makes sense to me as the next suit begins the actual manifestation of material, so the sun here may be the actual sun, rather than a spiritual one.

In addition, the card itself is attributed to Sun in Gemini. This causes the cohesive, life giving force of the Sun to be split and thus weakened. Malkuth is too grounded in reality for this to work, especially in a Swords card, and so you have what you have. The sun in the card seems to be giving a little light, but probably not warmth, since you can't even see it. So I would guess pre-dawn, in winter.