Unwilling Hanged Man?

ravenest

Or a magical statement (via tarot) signifing the old aeon formulae is just that ... the past aeon. Much of A.C.'s systems shows transition from old to new aeon ... I'm not sure it is shown to get in anyones face (accept the face that tries to condition us with dying god guilt and suffering.
 

Grigori

ravenest said:
Or a magical statement (via tarot) signifing the old aeon formulae is just that ... the past aeon. Much of A.C.'s systems shows transition from old to new aeon ... I'm not sure it is shown to get in anyones face (accept the face that tries to condition us with dying god guilt and suffering.

Yes no doubt. I think I over stated the "snub" part, I just found it quite amusing.
 

Aeon418

similia said:
Despite it being clearly written in the BoT, I just realized that this card is a direct snub at the Golden Dawn. The cross above the triangle is the Golden Dawn symbol, and represents the old aeon formula of sacrifice. Crowley has changed the shape of the Hanged Man to match the GD's symbol, to the GD meaning the descent of spiritual light into matter via Christ like sacrifice.
But the original Golden Dawn design incorporates the same cross and triangle motiff. The only real difference that I can see is that the Hanged Man is a corpse. Either that or he's not been out in the sun for a while. :laugh:

I agree with ravenest that the Thoth is an evolution of the Golden Dawn Tarot. The changes Crowley made within the Thoth don't break the rules of Golden Dawn symbolism. They kind of move it forward while using the same symbolic language.

The Golden Dawn saw the Hanged Man as the descent of the divine light in order to redeem the darkness. That's almost the Gnostic view of earth being the prison of spirit. That fits perfectly with the formula of Osiris and it's dualistic notion of Good Spirit versus Evil Matter (read Isis ;)). But the the formula of the New Aeon tells us that Spirit and Matter are two sides of the same coin. Osiris and Isis are both needed to create their son, Horus. The fomula of IAO changes. Instead of Isis being ruined by Apophis and resurrected in Osiris, now Horus is identified with Apophis and unites the seperated lovers. (A link to the Tower?)

With the realisation that Spirit = Matter, the question of redemption becomes an absurdity. Instead the function of the Hanged Man revolves around the nature of Illusion and incarnation. The letter Mem (Mem Yod Mem = 90) alludes to the secret (Yod -Will) hidden between the Waters (Mem). Once the secret is found the formula is reversed so that the submerged Hanged Man becomes the Emperor (90 - Tzaddi - Sulphur), the Kings mentioned in Liber AL, and sits on top of the Cubic Stone. But in order for that to happen you've got to do a bit of fishing. ;)
 

Aeon418

I've just thought of a very good example of how the Thoth is an evolution of the Golden Dawn Tarot, and how knowledge of the old design sheds light on the new.
The Sun card. :D

In the GD card the twin children are inside the walled garden. The wall represents restrictions and influences that are set up to guide the children's (humanities) growth. Only after they have learnt how to use the knowledge given them will they be able to climb over the wall. And this is exactly what Crowley's card represents.
Yet outside this wall are the twin children.....

They represent the next stage which is to be attained by mankind, in which complete freedom is alike the cause and the result of the new access of solar energy upon the earth.
 

ravenest

Yes, I thik this further makes the point that interpretation of Thoth is not best done by comparing the cards to their counterparts in other decks.

You need the Thelemic philosophy to understand this deck ( and lead a happier, less restricted & guilt-filled life that doesn't rely on suffering or restriction for 'redemption' ;) ).
 

Aeon418

ravenest said:
You need the Thelemic philosophy to understand this deck ( and lead a happier, less restricted & guilt-filled life that doesn't rely on suffering or restriction for 'redemption' ;) ).
Amen to that. :thumbsup:

The Hanged Man is submerged in the illusory world of the 4 (elements) and mistakes them for the supreme reality. As a direct consequence of his "ignorance", he suffers. But his eternal essence and True Self within the Fifth - Spirit, is unharmed by all of this.
48. Pity not the fallen! I never knew them. I am not for them. I console not: I hate the consoled & the consoler.

49. I am unique & conqueror. I am not of the slaves that perish. Be they damned & dead! Amen. (This is of the 4: there is a fifth who is invisible, & therein am I as a babe in an egg.)
The King (Emperor) identifies with the Fifth and rules Four. The Hanged Man is the slave that perishes.
19. Is a God to live in a dog? No! but the highest are of us. They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.
 

Grigori

Aeon418 said:
But the original Golden Dawn design incorporates the same cross and triangle motiff. The only real difference that I can see is that the Hanged Man is a corpse. Either that or he's not been out in the sun for a while. :laugh:

Thanks for the very detailed replies everyone. I've been running this over in my head. The difference it seemed to me was the Thoth shows explicitely the GD symbol, earlier decks show something similar, but not exactly the same. I've reached the Hanged Man section in Case, and he identifies the Hanged Man as the triangle and cross, but a downwards pointing triangle, made from the elbows and head of his Hanged Man.

Is there any significance to the downward pointing triangle with the cross as opposed to the upwards one, specific to this card or the GD symbolism? Perhaps is just preferrable for GDish decks to have this card with the water triangle rather than the fire. Or maybe it doesn't mean anything and I'm thinking about it too much :laugh:
 

Aeon418

similia said:
Is there any significance to the downward pointing triangle with the cross as opposed to the upwards one, specific to this card or the GD symbolism? Perhaps is just preferrable for GDish decks to have this card with the water triangle rather than the fire. Or maybe it doesn't mean anything and I'm thinking about it too much :laugh:
Yeah, you're thinking about it too much. :laugh:

I think Case wanted to emphasise the water angle by literally turning the glyph of alchemical sulphur upside down to represent the force of Geburah flowing down to watery Hod.

In the Golden Dawn glyph the fire triangle is preparing to rise again. After all it is the symbol of the Golden Dawn. I think the different glyphs are merely two ways of showing the same thing. One's going down, the other's comming back up after a dip in the water.
 

ravenest

Could it be some type of dynamic like the 'Holy Hexagram" (Book of Lies Ch. 69) ?
 

Aeon418

ravenest said:
Could it be some type of dynamic like the 'Holy Hexagram" (Book of Lies Ch. 69) ?
It could be. Good catch. ;) Although the rising triangle would have to be water in that case.