The "Celestial Globe" in The Star

ravenest

Anyway, I hope I explained it better this time…


Litlluw
RLG

No .... you just kept repeating the info I thought I had already outlined, I understand what you wrote and have known those facts / ideas for some time. That isnt the problem. Its the quantum leap at the crucial point of your line of argument.

I cant see how all of that makes the Star the earth .... the whole image is a star... anyway ... whatever .
 

ravenest

Right - such a solution, whatever name is chosen, would also ignore the first part of the sentence, which is "All these old letters of my book are correct, but (Tz) is not the Star."

It doesn't say "All these old names/titles of my book are correct..."

So Crowley had it right - the letter Tzaddi is not correctly attributed to the Star, but some other letter should be.

I dont get it either ... it is as though a 'premise' was thought up like; Tzaddi is not the Star so the Tzaddi stays with the image on the card but we change the name to 'Earth' so it isnt Star anymore, thus making 'The Star' (but not the image) not Tzaddi by changing the title ... or something like that :confused:
 

Aeon418

I dont get it either ... it is as though a 'premise' was thought up like; Tzaddi is not the Star so the Tzaddi stays with the image on the card but we change the name to 'Earth' so it isnt Star anymore, thus making 'The Star' (but not the image) not Tzaddi by changing the title ... or something like that :confused:
That's the way I read it too. What an underwhelming secret. :neutral:

I guess Crowley must have goofed big time with XX The Aeon.
 

RLG

Right - such a solution, whatever name is chosen, would also ignore the first part of the sentence, which is "All these old letters of my book are aright, but (Tz) is not the Star."

It doesn't say "All these old names/titles of my book are aright..."

So Crowley had it right - the letter Tzaddi is not correctly attributed to the Star, but some other letter should be.

Dwtw

Well one can't have ALL the letters right except one, because a switch means that two letters are wrong.

And I don't see how it ignores the first part of the sentence? In fact, it incorporates it: all the letters are correct, but this one letter, tzaddi, is not The Star, its called something else. That makes perfect grammatical sense.

Also, there is the possibility that the 'old letters' are the Roman numerals, indicating that the 'old' sequence, the TdM is the correct one, which is what AC adhered to.


Litlluw
RLG
 

RLG

If that's the simplest solution where does that leave the cards that Crowley did rename? :confused:

Dwtw

i don't see how they're relevant to the question, other than to point out that he felt free to rename cards. Why he didn't rename the Star one can only guess. Presumably because he was hung up on a certain interpretation of AL I:57, which is perfectly valid, but does not exclude other interpretations.

Litlluw
RLG
 

RLG

That's the way I read it too. What an underwhelming secret. :neutral:

I guess Crowley must have goofed big time with XX The Aeon.


Dwtw

I think a bit too much is being made of this. I did not claim it was a big secret, or the only solution to the puzzle in AL I:57. Changing the name to the Earth is relevant only in the context of working the Lurianic Tree of Return, which I outlined in my essay. I only gave a thumbnail sketch of it on this thread. I wouldn't expect the name change to be relevant to those working the Golden Dawn Tree. Nor is it relevant to those who believe Tzaddi is the Emperor.

As for it being a quantum leap from the name Star to the name Earth, it doesn't seem that big of a deal when it changes the tarot sequence from Star-Moon-Sun to Earth-Moon-Sun. The sequence is still astronomical. Plus the fact that there is a gigantic globe on the card that overwhelms every other aspect of the imagery. And the fact that AC changed the names of the virtues, so obviously the titles of the cards were not sacrosanct to him. And the fact that changing the name makes grammatical sense and is the simplest solution to the puzzle, as numerous commentators have mentioned over the years. So really, a name change is hardly radical or indefensible, and anyway it's all in the context of the Tree of Return.


Litlluw
RLG
 

Aeon418

Isis unveiled

Well one can't have ALL the letters right except one, because a switch means that two letters are wrong.

"This also is secret: my prophet shall reveal it to the wise."

Guess which letter means to reveal and revelation? Heh.
 

Aeon418

i don't see how they're relevant to the question, other than to point out that he felt free to rename cards.
But your interpretation of I:57 assumes that the Tarot as it stands in it's traditional form is already 'aright', aside from The Star needing a new name.

I'm curious how the 'aright' Last Judgment card, complete with traditional imagery, fits into the scheme of the Thelemic Tarot? :confused:
 

RLG

But your interpretation of I:57 assumes that the Tarot as it stands in it's traditional form is already 'aright', aside from The Star needing a new name.

I'm curious how the 'aright' Last Judgment card, complete with traditional imagery, fits into the scheme of the Thelemic Tarot? :confused:

Dwtw

That's not my position at all. I said that it makes grammatical sense to interpret the verse as requiring The Star be renamed. That says nothing about the other trump names.

Crowley noted that this part of the verse was in response to his internal question "do I have the attributions right?", since some trumps are mentioned just prior to this sentence. So the response of Nuit could be interpreted as;

All these old (Hebrew) letters of my Book (of Thoth) are aright, but (one of them), Tzaddi, is not (called) the Star.

Trump XVII could be renamed any number of things, that doesn't mean that the Angel or Last Judgment also need to be renamed.

That notwithstanding, other interpretations of the verse are also possible. But in defense of renaming The Star, it doesn't require reading an obvious statement such as 'ALL the letters are aright' to mean that two of the letters are wrong.

If the letters referred to are the Hebrew ones, then Occam's razor would say that they're all correctly attributed. If they're the Roman ones, the razor would say that the 'old' sequence of letters, i.e. key-numbers, is correct, not the new one learned in the Golden Dawn VIII-XI switch. Either interpretation would still allow for a renaming of The Star.

Crowley read it in his own way, and revealed his solution to switch letters, but I don't feel that that precludes other interpretations. I guess the point is, that IF the meaning of this sentence is to re-name the trump, it must be for a specific reason, not just for the sake of giving it another name. Obviously AC didn't need Nuit's 'permission' to rename the virtues and the Angel. And by renaming the trump to The Aeon and using an image of the Stele, he totally re-contextualized the meaning of that trump. In that sense a new name should have a context that makes use of that name. This is what I tried to provide in my essay. In the context of the GD Tree, I think a name like Stars or Galaxy would be more appropriate, if one insists on giving it a new name.

Litlluw
RLG
 

Aeon418

Changing the name to the Earth is relevant only in the context of working the Lurianic Tree of Return, which I outlined in my essay.
And outside of that particular context it's irrelevant? Okay....

But Crowley's entire symbolic framework is based around the relationships inherent in the Kircher Tree. As soon as you try to transplant it outside of that framework you are working with something completely different that is totally individual to yourself. Of course there's nothing wrong with that. But to turn around and start making statements from that same idiosyncratic position as if it were part of the 'shared common view' is only going to lead to confusing apples with oranges. The direction that this thread has taken is a case in point.