Saturn/Neptune contact in synastry

Maggiemay

As I was ''dissecting'' the synastry aspects between an ex and I...

I noticed a saturn/neptune conjunction as well as saturn/neptune opposition (by house, not by orb)

Now, from what I am reading, these aspects between saturn/neptune are usually representative of the doomed love affairs...the love stories that aren't destined...ect..

Usually, the opposition aspect is the most potent and significative but what do you say about a tight conjunction?

Anyone knows?

Thanks

Maggie
 

Minderwiz

Conjunctions represent a blending of energies. Now whether this blending is positive or negative depends on the planets and sign involved.

A Neptune/Saturn conjunction represents the blending of the nebulous, fantastic (in the literal sense) and vague with the structured, restricted, limited and directed. In other words the blend is of opposites.

The problem of sign is that whilst there are clearly delineated Saturn strengths by sign there is no such delineation for Neptune. This is because the discovery of Neptune conicided with a period of virtual Astrological demise.

So fleshing out the delineation of the conjunction is not as straightforward as the delineation of, say, a Saturn/Mars conjunction.

The house position of the conjunction is also important because it indicates the area of life where the conjunction is going to express itself.

Now you don't say whether the Saturn/Neptune conjunction is a 'his and hers' or is of one of you. so I can't go much further.

The interpretation you place on the Saturn/Neptune connection is one of a number of possible interpretations, especially if Saturn is weak, when it becomes quite malefic. However house and sign would be needed before this can be taken as a likely interpretation in a specific case.
 

Maggiemay

Hi Minderwiz,

About Neptune's delineation, what you wrote is very interesting indeed ( I didn't know that!)

As for the Saturn/Neptune aspects :

Him : Saturn 5 degree sagittarius
Me : Neptune 13 degree sagittarius

This synastry aspect his happening on the cusp between the 8th and 9th house.

I explain : For me, the whole aspects is smack in my 9th house, but for my ex, being that the cusp of his 9th is 10 degree sagittarius, saturn is in his 8th house while my neptune is over the cusp in his 9th house.

I am rather familiar with cross aspects happening in the 8th thouse but frankly, the 9th house is the least familiar for me out of all the houses.

So I am having quite a difficult time figuring out what this aspect was about and how it played out in our relationship.

What do you think?

Maggie :)

Ps : You might find this article relevant to our discussion :

http://www.throughnightsfire.com/SaturnNeptuneconnections.html
 

Minderwiz

OK I had a brief look at the link. I'm not familiar with the author but it clearly is based on a belief that karmic influences can be seen in a chart.

Now I don't particularly dispute that, but one thing is fairly clear and that is that there is no consensus about how karmic influences manifest in a chart. The trouble is that obviously there is no way of an experiential test, which there is for most other Astrological contentions.

The second observation is that the article, very sensibly, says that the connections need to be read in the context of the chart as a whole.

Now, in a non-karmic synastry context, I would not place much if any emphasis on a Saturn Neptune conjunction in Sagittarius in the Ninth. Especially as the degree of separation is wide. I'd really only pay attention to such conjunction if there was less than 2 degrees separation and better still less than one degree. The only thing that can be said for it is that the aspect in an applying one.

Now without any information on the rest of your chart, I would not say anything hard and fast. Saturn in your ninth, could indicate a desire to have a structured approach to higher education, religion, the law - if you like your conscious adult reactions to society's norms. As Saturn is not particularly strong in your chart, it might indicate some difficulties in adopting such a structured approach. It perhaps doesn't work as well as you'd like.

Now if his Neptune was within a degree of your Saturn, I'd hazard a guess that he (through his behaviour and interaction with you) 'clouds' your attempt to impose your structured approach,, or at least adds some fogginess to your approach. However, given the actual separation, I'd tend to discount that unless it was corroborating evidence of something that was strongly indicated elsewhere.

Now the extend to which my approximation of your Saturn, is accurate will depend very much on the rest of your chart. It may be something that is more than compensated by other things. At worst, it's nothing particularly bad and means that you have to work a little harder to impose some sort of structure on ninth house issues.

I've not dealt with the Karmic dimension but that's because it's not an area that I claim any competence in. I think it depends very much on your belief structure and whether it fits in to that. As I said above there's no real way of demonstrating it either way.

Also if you're doing some reflection, it may be more useful to reflect on what you know you went through because it's more likely that a conventional examination would provide some indicators of why you and your ex split. Only if you can't find any at all is it worth pursuing a karmic connection.
 

Maggiemay

Ok, I understand.

Thank you.

Maggie :)

ps : what is the maximum orb that you use for conjunctions? 10?
 

Minderwiz

In the old days it was planets that had the orb (called moiety) and not the aspect. As the moiety extends all around the planet (which is in the centre) an aspect is formed when the half moiety of one, is within the half moiety of another.

To establish the necessary separation you would have added the moieties of the two planets concerned and divide by 2. Generally this resulted in a wider definition of aspects than is used now. The moiety of Saturn is 13.5 degrees, which means that a planet whose half moiety is within 6.75 degrees of Saturn would be in aspect to it. Trouble is the system does not extend to the outer planets because they were unknown when it was established.

If we took a Saturn/Mars aspect for example, Mars has a moiety of 12.5 degrees so the aspect would be in force when the separation falls below 13 degrees.

Modern usage tends to see the separation in terms of angle alone, which is easier but I feel that the traditional view of calculating aspects is a sensible one. Conjunctions tend to be given 8 degrees. So strictly speaking by modern standards there was a conjunction in your synastry chart but the smaller the angle the stronger the link and applying aspects are stronger compared to separating aspects. Indeed if the aspect is separating some Astrologers will reduce the orb significantly.

With outers, I want a small degree of separation simply because they are so slow moving. Aspects between Saturn and an outer may be in 'force' for a considerable time (months) and aspects between two outers may be in'force' for a year or more.

That's a personal preference on my part and you will find that all astrologers have their preferences on what constitutes an aspect - though clearly these differences tend to be over WHEN the aspect comes into force.

One final point, you didn't say whether one or both of the planets was retrograde. If Saturn were retrograde, then the aspect would actually be separating because Saturn would be moving in the opposite direction to Neptune. If Neptune is Retrograde and Saturn is Direct the aspect would be closing more quickly than 'normal' and if both planets are retrograde the aspect would be separating.
 

Maggiemay

Dear Mindewiz,

Oh my God! You are quite a ''human encyclopedia''!!

Thank you sooo much for the thorough explanation on the orbs. I have been researching the internet to clarify that whole ''aspects & orbs'' issue and your post is the one enlightening explanation I was looking for.

The concept of moiety makes a heck of a lot of sense... (wonder why it is that no one seems to talk about that on the astrological websites.... lol)

His saturn is stationary - My neptune is Rx - ( his moon is in the mix : 9 degree sagittarius) I am studying our synastry b/c this relationship was very very special to me. We broke up years ago, both moved on, and yet, I can't say that I forgot about him! I really wonder why. (maybe b/c the NN were involved, but that is for another thread I guess..)


Here is a rather interesting read on that particular aspect (got to scroll down a bit to get to the saturn/neptune). It stand from an astrological standpoint (not karmic) - You might find it interesting but then again, judging from your profile you might as well have written the article yourself!: :)

http://d.scribd.com/docs/1btqcdqf2mg7kjkq938i.pdf


Thank you sooo much for sharing your information with me.

Maggie :))

ps: I am sooo glad I ''found'' you & this forum... I will be back with another zillion questions! Too bad I have family engagements today...if not I would have stayed right here, on this forum and shot my questions away....)

PPs: What do you prefer : synastry, midpoint composite or davison relationship??

ppps: ''Wer meines Speeres, Spittze furchtet,durchschreite das Feuer nie!''
------- Is that the Hero in you speaking?----- :)

*sulking* Maggie who wishes she didn't have previous engagements for the day.... :(
 

Minderwiz

Well if Saturn is stationary in your chart I'd ignore this aspect.
 

Bernice

If a Synastry Chart confounds me I draw up a Composite Chart - for the relationship itself. I've found it to be far more fruitful.... just my opinion :)

Bee :)

EDIT: Just another snippet re. a Saturn/Neptune contact. Although it's traditionally not considered in a positive light, it sometimes indicates the realization (Saturn) of a dream/aspiration (Neptune).
 

Maggiemay

Minderwiz said:
Well if Saturn is stationary in your chart I'd ignore this aspect.

Hold on! Hold on! I might have made a mistake. Stationary means that its moving right along like its supposed to, right?

If so, why should I ignore it? orb is too large?




Bernice said:
If a Synastry Chart confounds me I draw up a Composite Chart - for the relationship itself. I've found it to be far more fruitful.... just my opinion :)

Bee :)

EDIT: Just another snippet re. a Saturn/Neptune contact. Although it's traditionally not considered in a positive light, it sometimes indicates the realization (Saturn) of a dream/aspiration (Neptune).


Ok..

Which do you think is more accurate or loyal to reality : composite or davison?

I must tell you, I drew up both and they both had something very interesting to say .... but I hate to admit it : the davison chart was right on target... ( T'was less complimentary than composite though...)

Maggie :)