The Pictorial Key / LWB and Widely-Accepted Card Meanings

uruz

How influential is The Pictorial Key in how people conceptualize the cards in the divinatory context? I rarely if ever see citations to this, and I've gathered that LWB's in general aren't seen as anything more than an ok launching point for beginners.

Is it really the case that Waite's deck has far surpassed his own artifice? Or have I just not been paying close enough attention to Using Tarot Cards and Your Readings, and are the meanings people adhere to largely influenced by Waite's own interpretations?

Then again, I don't know that even in the microcosm of R-W-S tarot there are widely accepted meanings. Some pictures are certainly more evocative than others, but for the more vague ones I would have expected Waite's writings to be tantamount to gospel, given that he at least ostensibly came up with their depictions.

I guess what I'm asking is, if I ask 10 Rider-Waite-Smith users what a given card means, am I likely to get 10 of the same answer or 10 different answers? And where will those answers be coming from?
 

rwcarter

Welcome top Aeclectic, uruz!

How influential is The Pictorial Key in how people conceptualize the cards in the divinatory context?
In and of itself, I'd say not very influential mainly because its meanings are obtuse, for lack of a better word, for most of the people who read it. It takes a lot of hard work to tease out what Waite was trying to say given the constraints he was under.

Or have I just not been paying close enough attention to Using Tarot Cards and Your Readings, and are the meanings people adhere to largely influenced by Waite's own interpretations?
Influenced by? Sure, indirectly. Waite's meanings have influenced a number of authors who have written meanings based on those meanings.

Then again, I don't know that even in the microcosm of R-W-S tarot there are widely accepted meanings. Some pictures are certainly more evocative than others, but for the more vague ones I would have expected Waite's writings to be tantamount to gospel, given that he at least ostensibly came up with their depictions.
You have to remember that Waite felt bound by his oath(s) of secrecy, so what he wrote reflects him trying to stay within those bounds. So I would venture to say that the "widely accepted" RWS meanings are generally Golden Dawn-ish more than they are "Waite's gospel".

I guess what I'm asking is, if I ask 10 Rider-Waite-Smith users what a given card means, am I likely to get 10 of the same answer or 10 different answers? And where will those answers be coming from?
I think many of the interpretations would be in the same ballpark instead of being identical But that's what we as tarot readers do - add our own little something to the meanings we've learned; otherwise anyone could just pull meanings from the one book that existed and use the one RWS deck to do readings.

Rodney
 

DavidMcCann

The real "Waite meanings" are what you see on the cards. Take the 7 of coins. The Golden Dawn said "Success unfulfilled" but Etteilla had had "Money". The Waite-Smith card has a gardener admiring his successful plant: obviously Etteilla rather than GD. Then for the 8 of Coins, the GD had "Prudence", while Etteilla had an "Agreeable Brunette". The W-S craftsman, skillfully producing his pentacles, obviously shows Waite branching off on his own.
 

Zephyros

On the one hand it could be said that the PKT was the "original LWB," the one that set the tone for all that followed. Its meanings were quite influential, I think, and echoes of them can be found in all modern Tarot books. However, the PKT is also a lot deeper than meets the eye, and Waite seems to allude in many places to the occult secrets he was protecting. Some of these allusions are blatant, for those who know what to look for, while in other places they are far more subtle.

The meanings themselves are a mixed bag of attributions, from Kabbalah to astrology to GD lore to Waite's personal brand of Grail mysticism. Some of the RWS images, while I can still recognize where they're coming from and why, I don't agree with. Others I agree with more, including the Seven of Pentacles which, for a variety of reasons I won't go into now, I see as a reference to the exile of Adam from Eden, after which he was forced to till the soil for sustenance. Every single image has reasoning behind it which can be followed up on, and as obtuse as the PKT can be, every line yields some secret, despite the best intentions of its author.

So, I would say quite influential.
 

ravenest

The real "Waite meanings" are what you see on the cards. Take the 7 of coins. The Golden Dawn said "Success unfulfilled" but Etteilla had had "Money". The Waite-Smith card has a gardener admiring his successful plant: obviously Etteilla rather than GD.


I dont see why (nor the obviousness of it) Etteilla is more accurate in this case. One could see "Success unfulfilled" as 'partial success', in that case the gardener could be looking at the 'successful' plant, but contemplating the 'fulfilled success' of harvest to come. That seems a more direct association than 'money' ... which, if one went on 'literal visual image' might fit this card better;

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OkN9vYqkdIE/TNhjBg3Hh9I/AAAAAAAAAy0/TtJPJUfT7tw/s1600/6+pent+rw.jpg
 

DavidMcCann

I dont see why (nor the obviousness of it) Etteilla is more accurate in this case. One could see "Success unfulfilled" as 'partial success', in that case the gardener could be looking at the 'successful' plant, but contemplating the 'fulfilled success' of harvest to come. That seems a more direct association than 'money' ... which, if one went on 'literal visual image' might fit this card better
"Success unfulfilled" is just the title. The full description says "Loss of an apparently promising fortune. Hopes deceived and crushed. Disappointment." That's why Crowley called the card "Failure". No harvest here!
 

Richard

"Success unfulfilled" is just the title. The full description says "Loss of an apparently promising fortune. Hopes deceived and crushed. Disappointment." That's why Crowley called the card "Failure". No harvest here!
Success Unfulfilled is the GD title for the Saturn in Taurus decan. Waite's divinatory meanings in PKT are traditional and not necessarily based on the decans, but the images do seem to be, as far as I can tell. Robert Place noticed a disparity between the images and Waite's meanings and wrongfully concluded that Waite did not communicate well with PCS. However, as Waite states in PKT: "The mere numerical powers and bare words of the meanings are insufficient by themselves; but the pictures are like doors which open into unexpected chambers, or like a turn in the open road with a wide prospect beyond."

For the most part, Crowley used the GD decan titles, but when he made a change, it was because he disagreed with the GD interpretation.
 

ravenest

"Success unfulfilled" is just the title. The full description says "Loss of an apparently promising fortune. Hopes deceived and crushed. Disappointment." That's why Crowley called the card "Failure". No harvest here!

I think I misunderstood your earlier post.

Are you saying that the Waite card's visual images are based on Etteilla but his written descriptive images are based on G.D. ? So the idea of money (the harvest to come ? ) is being contemplated by the gardener . ... Its not a bad attempt to create an image representing 'success unfulfilled' but a case of wrong or obscure imagery?

I think I am starting to remember why I gave up reading RW and stuck with the Thoth.

Unless its a case of ... "OH NO! My capsicums have turned into pentacles - I'm ruined! "

So, if one is starting out with RW ... and sees that image ... then goes to the book meaning ....

OR, curiouser still ... if one was doing a reading for someone, say professionally, and that card came up and you desribed it as in the book, and the querent looked at that card and said "How do you get that meaning from that picture?'

What would one say ?
 

ravenest

Success Unfulfilled is the GD title for the Saturn in Taurus decan. Waite's divinatory meanings in PKT are traditional and not necessarily based on the decans, but the images do seem to be, as far as I can tell. Robert Place noticed a disparity between the images and Waite's meanings and wrongfully concluded that Waite did not communicate well with PCS. However, as Waite states in PKT: "The mere numerical powers and bare words of the meanings are insufficient by themselves; but the pictures are like doors which open into unexpected chambers, or like a turn in the open road with a wide prospect beyond."

For the most part, Crowley used the GD decan titles, but when he made a change, it was because he disagreed with the GD interpretation.

What! ... unexpected chambers ... why?

One would hope these 'chambers' , even though they may be 'unexpected' would still hold some context and relationship to the cards value and meaning. 'To open wider prospects' ? Again, one hopes, within the context of the card .

Mary Greer seems to agree with Waite's pictorial here ; " in Hebrew called ShBV Shibo or abundance unites the spiritual 3 to the material 4 and signifies a Supernal Force, also a possible result to be obtained by skill and courage. " - abundance of harvest obtained by skill (of the gardner) ? ? ?

What image from this decan of Taurus coincides with the image on this card ?
 

Richard

"Success unfulfilled" is just the title. The full description says "Loss of an apparently promising fortune. Hopes deceived and crushed. Disappointment." That's why Crowley called the card "Failure". No harvest here!
Rider-Waite is not a Golden Dawn deck. Neither the Book T descriptions nor meanings are necessarily applicable to the RW images. The PKT description and meaning:
A young man, leaning on his staff, looks intently at seven pentacles attached to a clump of greenery on his right; one would say that these were his treasures and that his heart was there. Divinatory Meanings : These are exceedingly contradictory; in the main, it is a card of money, business, barter; but one reading gives altercation, quarrels--and another innocence, ingenuity, purgation. Reversed: Cause for anxiety regarding money which it may be proposed to lend.​