The Tarot symbols origin

Richard

Probably many of them were born at a time when people, mainly the upper classes, still received a classical education, comprising of Latin, Greek, philosophy, etc., so they were at least familiar with them.
In addition to that, Platonic and Neo Platonic concepts were incorporated into Hermeticism, so it certainly would not be surprising if some of the founders of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (HOGD), such as Westcott and Mathers, were familiar with the Dialogs. (Mathers, in particular, was largely responsible for ushering esoteric Tarot into the 20th century world.)
 

ravenest

I'm assuming that you don't understand that "Talking Tarot" is a different section of the forum that includes philosophical discussions (i.e., Hermeticism, etc.). It can be found here: http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=16

And I assume you don't understand my sarcasm or the first line of my post. I posted that here because it doesn't seem to matter what ends up in 'history'.

"Historical Research" is not an appropriate place to proselytize, which is what you appear to be doing.

Since proselytize means to attempt to convert another from their religious faith or belief to ones own I fail to see how you got that from my post. What am I tying to convert anyone to? - An open mind ? :rolleyes:

The post is about one possible influence that may have developed modern tarot imagery in the RW deck.
 

ravenest

There's quite a lot of reference to Plato in the tarot history forum as an influence on the old imagery.

Were the Golden Dawn fans of the Platonic dialogs?

Well, I could answer that but it might be seen that I am trying to convert you to .... something :confused:
 

Richard

Beware of the proselytizer!
 

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ravenest

Rosanne

All Jokes aside..and this has been humorous to read thus far..no one seems to talk about the influence of previous and earlier playing cards as an origin of Tarot card symbols. These are apparently seen as 'other' and not Tarot. For example here are some gambling cards from 1377- some 50-70 years before Tarot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medieval_gambling_cards.jpg
It does not seem a big ask to extend these cards into a 5th suit.
I think we get a bit deep when considering a game. Sorry to those whom think Tarot is a deposited plan of world almanac proportions or science from the heavens. Things like Justice have a universal concept as do low lives like the flimflam man.
What Tarot has become is a whole other conversation.Allegorical images have been part of image games since inception.
~Rosanne
 

Richard

.......Sorry to those whom think Tarot is a deposited plan of world almanac proportions or science from the heavens.......
To quote from Liber Θ, 'There is no reason for the typical reader to accept the esoteric history, it being, by its very nature, incapable of verification.' The iconoclasts may mock all they wish, but they are mocking thin air. Truth does not reside in a pack of cards.

If I park my truck in a large parking lot, I look around for landmarks so that I can find it again. My truck is not the landmark, but the landmark will help direct me to the truck.

Okay?

})
 

Rosanne

Hi LRichard (as I hum to some Rock and Roll tune)
Are you suggesting I am an iconoclast ??? Lol!
Landmarks are everywhere in images. I can find my truck most places.
Yes I use Tarot images in various ways- that range from a spiritual tool to Coasters.
Much the same as Masonic apron- one is symbolic, one as a protector of clothes.
In the Beginning (to pilfer a phrase)....the symbols of Tarot were in the main the symbols of a game, when put on card.
I think they came from Arabic lands- the land of the heathen devils, as it was thought of then. Most likely in the hands of Envoys like the Eastern Christians who went to see the Pope.
When they got to Italy they were escorted by soldiers who played cards; ground level exchanges were made.
What happened then was that Tarot developed. Happenstance was that it became a very good spiritual tool.
~Rosanne
 

ravenest

Sounds fine to me. I think we are talking about various possible things here;

1) Playing cards or gambling cards developed then 'happenstance' projected esoteric symbolism and spiritual tool usage on to it.

2) Esoteric symbolism and spiritual tools have been around a loooooong time and get depicted in imagery (from cave art to Mamluke cards, fortune cookies, tracing boards Plato's dialogues , etc. ), they got 'grafted' onto playing decks.

3) The process as in 2 but some realised these images could be used as in 1, for fun, irreverence or protection. (I myself have played a silly game of cards with a Tarot Deck, with silly rules that relate to peoples understanding of the cards and why some cards should beat other cards by 'esoteric value' and not number or suit alone. Its a great game and relies on the group consensus and discussion when an esoteric value is disputed. )

I haven't seen definitive historical proof either way so I assume it is a mix of everything.

PS still waiting for an answer to my post #232 ???
 

Richard

Hi LRichard (as I hum to some Rock and Roll tune)
Are you suggesting I am an iconoclast ??? Lol!
Ah, Rosanne, I, myself, am an iconoclast (of sorts), and it takes one to know one. ;)

Landmarks are everywhere in images. I can find my truck most places.
Yes I use Tarot images in various ways- that range from a spiritual tool to Coasters.
Much the same as Masonic apron- one is symbolic, one as a protector of clothes.
In the Beginning (to pilfer a phrase)....the symbols of Tarot were in the main the symbols of a game, when put on card.
I think they came from Arabic lands- the land of the heathen devils, as it was thought of then. Most likely in the hands of Envoys like the Eastern Christians who went to see the Pope.
When they got to Italy they were escorted by soldiers who played cards; ground level exchanges were made.
What happened then was that Tarot developed. Happenstance was that it became a very good spiritual tool.
~Rosanne
You deserve Five Stars for explaining exoteric tarot history in a way that might be acceptable from an academic historical perspective. The interesting questions pertain to the 'happenstance,' but such questions may have no academically acceptable answers and therefore do not belong in the Historical Research forum.