The Tarot symbols origin

Under the Sub-Forum heading of Historical Research it states:

"Research, studies and theories on the origins and development of Tarot and playing cards."

So theories are welcome here in historical research. I, for one, look forward to the theories. I will judge for myself whether the theory is worth my time to ponder or accept.

After all, just because something is in a book, doesn't make it a fact in all cases.

Cheers!

tarot heart said:

After all, just because something is in a book, doesn't make it a fact in all cases.

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Thank you. That's exactly my point!!!!

I've always favored the theory that Tarot came from Mars but that it was little green men from our Moon that traveled to Mars and brought it back from there. BTW, you won't find this in any book.

16-17-18 sequence of Jean Noblet with Cesare Ripa's 'Benignità'

Hi. Here's something from what I am working on at Twitter (in Japanese).


The illustrated version of Ripa's ''Iconologia' and Jean Noblet's tarot deck are both from 17th century.

Considering that THE MOON card in the Cary sheet, which most probably precedes them in time, has no dogs and droplets in the sky yet, isn't this interesting?

The WOMAN in a dress with STARS on it is SHEDDING MILK from her BREASTS---

Thank you Kenji!
That is a non christian depiction of "Grace".
There was (as you most likely know) a large body of Christian art that shows Mary the Virgin known as Maria lactans, but I am not sure when those images were stopped as been somewhat nude or not appropriate as Mary feeding us below (I am sure feeding Jesus was OK).
You are right- it is very interesting. It is definitely a non-christian emblem.
~Rosanne

Fascinating images, Kenji, although I'm not sure if you are proposing that Ripa's Iconography was the origin of the Tarot symbols of the dog and the dew in the Marseille deck or the other way around??? How do you see these themes in relation to the 15th century decks (or don't you)?

Here's a work that discusses the symbolism of the Nursing Mother in the 17th century: http://books.google.com/books?id=hD...wAA#v=onepage&q=emblem lactating Ripa&f=false

Rosanne said:

All Jokes aside..and this has been humorous to read thus far..no one seems to talk about the influence of previous and earlier playing cards as an origin of Tarot card symbols. These are apparently seen as 'other' and not Tarot. For example here are some gambling cards from 1377- some 50-70 years before Tarot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medieval_gambling_cards.jpg

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Hello Rosanne,
those cards cannot be earlier than the end of the XVth century, since the French suits (hearts, diamonds, clubs and spades) were invented at that time. So, a few decades after the invention of tarot.
http://www.pagat.com/class/french.html
http://www.i-p-c-s.org/faq/history_6.php

(I have not read the full thread, so I apologize if this has been pointed out already).

DoctorArcanus said:

Hello Rosanne,
those cards cannot be earlier than the end of the XVth century, since the French suits (hearts, diamonds, clubs and spades) were invented at that time. So, a few decades after the invention of tarot.

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Well that was a BIG oops! now wasn't it?
My point remains...that the symbols of Tarot was influenced by earlier playing card images.
~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

Thank you Kenji!
That is a non christian depiction of "Grace".
There was (as you most likely know) a large body of Christian art that shows Mary the Virgin known as Maria lactans, but I am not sure when those images were stopped as been somewhat nude or not appropriate as Mary feeding us below (I am sure feeding Jesus was OK).
You are right- it is very interesting. It is definitely a non-christian emblem.
~Rosanne

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Curious image, (both the one shown and Maria Lactans) and old story ; Hera's breast milk sprayed out and created the Milky Way and about 40, 000 years previous to that story being written the Aboriginal people of Australia decided that the stars were drops of breast milk.

They also believe the stars poured their water (from a female force) partly through the sky and partly on the earth, and that is how water came to earth, the water made all of the earth bloom and grow as before it was a flat featureless desert.

But no iconography to compare, only mythology.

...

Thanks for all useful remarks.

Let me ask a question: is one researching Tarot because of beautiful pictures or with attempt to understand it/get knowledge about something…?

I’m talking about the knowledge behind Tarot mainly and not about the methods of its obtaining. Although one of them is the method of historical research. And I think if the method is not serving of the purpose of getting the knowledge, we may extend it a bit...

But if, after all, someone likes to get understanding about the subject, that one have to understand, that the Knowledge itself is not linked neither to a specific territory no time period. We as humans only discover the Knowledge from different angels through the history. For instance, Newton’s law on universal gravitation was acting before he discovered it and is continuing to act after. The same applies for spiritual knowledge which is also not linked neither to the specific territory no time, that means that this Knowledge exists, and every one can open it for himself.

In this thread I try to show the link that this knowledge existed before the “present” form of Tarot was created. This knowledge did not “came from Mars” and was known at different continents in various forms. And Tarot in present form also reflects this spiritual knowledge. With attempt to show what is similar I apply to the authoritative sources. Everyone can do it as well…

The sequence of the first 3 Arcana I tried to show already.
4th Arcana is the Hierophant according to Maitreya (he calles it the Field). The symbol of the field is the base of a pyramid – a 4-side square. Field is an internal world of the soul. The internal field is the place of dreams. There are 2 falling persons in the Tower arcana: King and Worker . King and Worker - it’s a dual mind. When a person falls asleep he dreams himself either as Worker or King. He dreams himself as Worker when his mind is fixed to the external life of events (while being awake his mind is linked to the external life). As King he dreams when his mind is concentrated on the spiritual world. The plough is the tool of the Worker, he is known as “grandeval peasant» who teach people to cultivate land and grow fruits. King-warrior uses sacrificing altar as refusal from his deals and results of his activity. He is chained (chain has the link at the following arcana with lady-anima). The first (Worker) is the host of the field, the warrior tends to obtain the knowledge about himself, refusing the benefits of the field. In Egyptian Book of the Dead it was written Ap-Uat –the opener of the ways of the South, he stays on the plough (Dendera Zodiac). The Employee - Worker was known in Sumerian astrology as Aries constellation. In Egyptian book of the dead the Aries Constellation is the Prince of the Field.

If a sequence of symbolic images in ancient times is similar (at least for two thirds) with Arcana Tarot, is it a evidence from your point of view what the knowledge of spiritual path (consisting of 22 steps) were known before 14 century?

These World myths have a great resonance ravenest! Like flood stories and Virgin Births and breastmilk. Very natural forces of course!,and very Catholic(Universal)

I am nowhere near my books, so this statement is somewhat anecdotal, and is about the Star card of the Noblet.
When the Catholics were having conferences, between themselves XVth Century (that is the Eastern and Western Catholics)there was this symbolic idea of two streams mixing and forming one great River of Catholicism, which meant Universal under the Sun.Or at least that is what they were trying to achieve. To a great degree, they are still united in tenants of faith, but they each have their own Pope, with very different power bases.

~Rosanne