Horary beginner questions

daphne

Learning horary, going slow. I miss somebody experienced to talk with and verify my ideas, conclusions, results. And also discuss my mistakes, when I did not get it right, what did I miss?

This is the reason I open this thread to discuss about horary. I will have probably more questions in the future and I am thinking not to load the forum with zillions of questions about same topic basicaly.
Others learning horary are welcome to post their questions, ideas, answers.
This is not so much focused on only one specific chart, but more on general rules and interpretations.

My first question is about a lost object which I find it literally simultaneously looking at the chart result. And, this is the nice part, BECAUSE I looked at it.

The question "Where is my deck?". I lost it and I searched for it for hours, all drawers, checking obsessively 3 times all the places I keep decks. Nothing, gone. Desperately and tired I turned to astrology, now it is the moment to show me your magic powers, I thought. Clock, chart, planets: Lord 1 - Saturn (Capricorn), Lord 2 - Saturn (Aquarius). House X.
First idea - I am the deck, the deck is me. I already found it? I am touching the deck?
One arm away was the wooden box I checked several times and I took it in my hand. Through the silk I could see a little bit of the deck, enough to recognize it. So not true. Enough to mis- recognize it! I opend the box 3 times and looked superficially, not seeing it was the deck missing.
This time I just took it out of silk to look. THAT was IT! The deck. In my hand!
Great is the relief of one searching for so long for a missing object!

I know that when it is the same Lord, I should consider the Moon as Lord 1, but this was my first answer and the good one.
Looking at Lord 1 Moon, she would make a square with Lord 2 Saturn in 10 degrees, first conjunct-ing Jupiter. A totally different answer if replacing the Lord 1 with the Moon. And not correct, it was within minute I discovered the lost object.

Now, here is the question: is it correct to interpret it like I did?
Can it be: Lord 1 = Lord 2 = you already found it, you have it NOW.
Or it was just a coincidence?
 

Minderwiz

Without seeing the chart, it's difficult to give a full reply to your question. So could you please post the time, date and place of your chart, so that I can check my provisional answer.

The lost deck is one of your material possessions, which in turn fits into the second house. So Lord 2 is important. From your post, I deduced that this lay in the tenth house (though how close to the cusp I don't know, nor do I know other placements.

The tenth house placement could suggest a number of locations to check. The place of work (either at home or at your employers) is one obvious place to check. In this context, if you see yourself as a Tarot reader, then the cards are your 'tools' and your initial check should be where you usually keep them - not just a cursory check but a full examination. It that place was the box, then we have a hit.

I never consider the Moon as Lord 1, unless Cancer is on the Ascendant. If I have a situation like yours, then I take the exaltation ruler for one of the significators. So I would probably have used Mars as your significator (unless there was a another planet in the first). That is because Mars is the exaltation ruler of Capricorn. I would still have used the Moon as your co-significator, so anything it has to tell, it will still tell.

Lilly has a rather complex system for finding lost objects, which takes into account the direction (North, South, East, West, etc) using the signs and houses that the significators are placed in. He also uses the signs to identify how high up the lost item is and the type of place that it is in. For example, Saturn is in Scorpio, which is a Water sign, which suggests a low placement, possibly near moisture, liquids or plumbing.

I must admit that I've never found Lilly's system very satisfactory if I try to apply it in full, though sometimes parts of it can be very accurate at times for some charts. Oddly I don't get a lot of questions about lost objects, so I've never really done a lot of cross checking back to the chart.
 

daphne

Interesting, never heard about taking the exaltation ruler as the Lord 1 if they are the same with the question. I am studying horary with the John Frawley book, and he gives several alternatives when questioner and quesited planets coincide:
- take the ruler of the next sign to the sign on the cusp of quesited house
- take the Moon as significator for the querent
- use another planet if and only if is within a couple of degrees of the cusp of the house in question and in the same sign as that cusp
- the almuten of the house cusp

Lily system with exact placement of the lost object sounds interesting and very elaborate (and precise). I am not there yet, to learn it, but the box with the deck was not near moist, but on a higher shelf I could reach with my hand.
Also I am not a professional tarot reader, to understand why Saturn was in X. But maybe these are just irrelevant as the first idea from the chart is that I = deck = I already found it but just did not see it.
 

Minderwiz

Interesting, never heard about taking the exaltation ruler as the Lord 1 if they are the same with the question. I am studying horary with the John Frawley book, and he gives several alternatives when questioner and quesited planets coincide:
- take the ruler of the next sign to the sign on the cusp of quesited house
- take the Moon as significator for the querent
- use another planet if and only if is within a couple of degrees of the cusp of the house in question and in the same sign as that cusp
- the almuten of the house cusp

I don't claim that my method is 'correct' in some objective sense. The object of a significator is to stand for the thing in question. To my mind that means that it must have some real connection to it. I don't see the sign on the next cusp to the sign of the questited as having any link to it at all. That would suggest that I used the third house cusp ruler (assuming it's a different sign) to signify a second house quesited. To me that's not sensible.

The Moon already is a significator for the querent, so I can see the argument for using that as the sole significator but it does break the link between Ascendant and the querent.

The planet within two degrees of the Ascendant or the quesited's house cusp makes more sense as it is physically in the house and is therefore connected with it. The problem is that there is not always, or even often, such a planet.

The almuten is likely to be either the sign ruler (which of course would not work in these circumstances) or the exaltation ruler (which brings me back to my method). Where there is no exaltation ruler, it's very difficult to get a planet other than the sign ruler as the Almuten. It would have to be both the triplicity ruler and the terms ruler of the cusp in order to tie with the sign ruler and it would have to also be in its own decan to beat it.

There's another method too, taking a natural significator of the quesited - the planet that 'rules' the thing. So the Moon or ruler of the Lot of Fortune could signify the quesited in a health question as both are natural significators of the body. Venus could signify a friend or a young woman, etc.

I think the underlying issue is to find a significator that connects to the house of the quesited (or to the Ascendant) or to the nature of the quesited (or the querent), The exaltation ruler (if there is one) has signification for that house and might well be the Almuten of the cusp.

daphne said:
Lily system with exact placement of the lost object sounds interesting and very elaborate (and precise). I am not there yet, to learn it, but the box with the deck was not near moist, but on a higher shelf I could reach with my hand.
Also I am not a professional tarot reader, to understand why Saturn was in X. But maybe these are just irrelevant as the first idea from the chart is that I = deck = I already found it but just did not see it.

Lilly's system and indeed alternatives are best left till you're happy with more simple readings. Lilly's sytem is quite complex and I only described one of the factors he would take into consideration. He'd go with the balance of the 'testimonies'.
 

daphne

I don't claim that my method is 'correct' in some objective sense. The object of a significator is to stand for the thing in question. To my mind that means that it must have some real connection to it. I don't see the sign on the next cusp to the sign of the questited as having any link to it at all. That would suggest that I used the third house cusp ruler (assuming it's a different sign) to signify a second house quesited. To me that's not sensible.

The Moon already is a significator for the querent, so I can see the argument for using that as the sole significator but it does break the link between Ascendant and the querent.

The planet within two degrees of the Ascendant or the quesited's house cusp makes more sense as it is physically in the house and is therefore connected with it. The problem is that there is not always, or even often, such a planet.

The almuten is likely to be either the sign ruler (which of course would not work in these circumstances) or the exaltation ruler (which brings me back to my method). Where there is no exaltation ruler, it's very difficult to get a planet other than the sign ruler as the Almuten. It would have to be both the triplicity ruler and the terms ruler of the cusp in order to tie with the sign ruler and it would have to also be in its own decan to beat it.

There's another method too, taking a natural significator of the quesited - the planet that 'rules' the thing. So the Moon or ruler of the Lot of Fortune could signify the quesited in a health question as both are natural significators of the body. Venus could signify a friend or a young woman, etc.

I think the underlying issue is to find a significator that connects to the house of the quesited (or to the Ascendant) or to the nature of the quesited (or the querent), The exaltation ruler (if there is one) has signification for that house and might well be the Almuten of the cusp.

Now, after you discussed each of Frawley proposals for significators, I am also thinking that the exaltation makes sense more then the next house ruler. (but I still have to think why Moon is not a good idea, she is also a querent co-significator, why do you say it is not connected with the ASC = the querent?)

And the way you detailed the meanings of each of the choices made me understand better the basics of how to chose to represent the question in such cases as I described. Thank you, M.!
 

Minderwiz

Now, after you discussed each of Frawley proposals for significators, I am also thinking that the exaltation makes sense more then the next house ruler. (but I still have to think why Moon is not a good idea, she is also a querent co-significator, why do you say it is not connected with the ASC = the querent?)

And the way you detailed the meanings of each of the choices made me understand better the basics of how to chose to represent the question in such cases as I described. Thank you, M.!

In the ancient Cosmology, the Moon occupies the sphere closest to Earth. The light from the Sun and that reflected from the other planets has to pass through its sphere. Therefore the Moon was seen as mediating the influence (however defined) of the heavens on Earth. The Moon came to symbolise our physical bodies and our health. So the Moon as both the mediating planet and the planet that has natural signification for the body is an obvious co-significator for the querent. I don't reject that in anyway. Indeed I can envisage circumstances in which I might well turn to the Moon as the sole significator but only in ones where there is no exaltation ruler that I can fall back on or no planet well placed in the relevant house, etc.

My reason is purely subjective but it lies in the Moon not having a specific connection to the Ascendant, but only a general one to the querent. Of course if the Ascendant lies in Taurus then the Moon is the exaltation ruler. In Earth signs she is the Triplicity ruler in night charts and if the Ascendant were to fall in an Earth sign and in the Terms of Face of the Moon, in a night chart, I would be very tempted to use it.

Things aren't totally cut and dried. There is room for the Astrologer to make certain choices. Those choices may be good or bad in terms of their reading but remember Lilly refers to the Astrologer as the 'Artist' and that indicates the application of skills and knowledge tailored to the situation. I don't claim my approach is the right one, but it does seem to work when I use it and it has some clear relationship to the Ascendant or to the quesited's house cusp.