Bâtons in English?

kwaw

Rusty Neon said:
[B
[*]I would translate Deniers as Coins. However, that said, Deniers has also been rendered into English as Deniers or Money (e.g., Queen of Deniers, or Queen of Money). Personally, I find Money a very unelegant rendition into English.

The word Denier exists as an archaic english word meaning 'coin', and I think 'coin' is the most accurate translation of the French 'Denier'. The etymological connected Italian word 'denaro' however would probably be better translated as money or cash?

Kwaw
 

Major Tom

Another word, beginning with the letter 'd' that I've heard used in the UK and in North America is ducat.

"Sorry mate, I haven't got the ducats". :laugh:
 

kwaw

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This is interesting ...

ihcoyc said:
My understanding is that a trump card was called atout because it could be played on any card (à tout) in the game of tarot.

Thanks ihcoyc

And could the fool be à tout as well, or not? So in our letter sequence it should be counted as seperate and last in sequence? [The Etteilla deck does this, but his ordering is 21 [Atout], Rods [Batons], Cups [Coupes], Swords [Epees], Coins [Denier] and Madman or Folly [F], so the alphabetic sequence falls down with the transposition of E and D].

Kwaw
 

Ross G Caldwell

I think "baton" (without the circonflex, and pronounced as an English word) is a good English word for this suit.

"Baton" is used in relay races and (I assume) is the root of "bat" (as in baseball and cricket), so it recalls the Mamluk suit of "polo sticks", as sporting implements;

it is also used in parades, which recalls the ceremonial use of batons. So I think the term "baton" as an English word covers a lot of symbolic ground quite appropriate to the suit.

Cups and Swords pose no problem, and I use "Coins" myself for the Deniers. But what do people think of "Dollars" (from Dutch "Taler")? It may seem very coarse and too blunt even, but this coarseness may reflect rather well how people regarded the "coins" suit in the beginning. Plus we get to keep the "D", without having to use an archaic or borrowed word.

For the "atouts", since there is no tradition of playing tarot in English speaking countries, none of the game words became Anglicized. "Arcanes" (or the bastardized "arcanas") reflects well their position in the English tarot tradition, which is entirely divinatory and esoteric, and it allows us to keep the "A." But

Crowley played on the sound of the French "atout" in using the Egyptian "atu" (means "house" or "abode" IIRC), and to the extent that Crowley has influenced the English tarot world, you will find the word "atu" used frequently - also has the "A" advantage.
 

Shalott

Rusty Neon said:
[*]A question for those who are using 10 de Baton(s) as the English rendition. Are you pronouncing the 10 as Dix [phonetic 'Dees'] or as Ten? [/B]

Personally, I have no prob with the French for the Majors, my first deck was majors-only that I drew myself based on Marseille or cousin, so that is firmly ingrained in my head, even when I only used English language decks. The minors I learned in English so I have to make a conscious effort to type them in French. The suits I'm becoming more consistent with. The numbers - English for me. But I'll pretty much always type "10" and not "dix" or "ten." I can't say that I struggle with the suit names, but I keep hearing from various ppl here that such-and-such (usually the most common) isn't a good translation, which has only left me wondering..."What is?" Coins and Batons are what I've been using, so thus I'll continue. :)