Sun on the Death Card

I guess for Bishop,King, maid, and child (and snail) in Death the Sun is going down- but for he who rides his day is long and sunrise or sunset -no mind he sweeps us all sometime. There are some interesting things to indicate a rising sun though. The arrow/spur to cave -Jesus rising from the dead-Lazurus coming 'out into the light' The Felucca/sail boat heading towards the rising Sun, shades of the Egyptian celestial boat carrying the dead to their new life; maybe even the Ferryman on the River Styx flowing eastward. For me I think of Death as the Sun going down. Hey rainwolf, I think that person in the distance is a dead tree symbolic of the cross, but I am always open to new ideas..... and TarotBear I'm with Dulcimer...heres a quote for you
from Isaiah "Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own conceits.."
~Rosanne

It's helpful to consider the cards that surround a card-image, so that it is not thought of entirely in isolation in the series. So, Hanged Man before, Death, Temperance after. Suspension -- Death -- Transformation. Descent -- Death-- Ascent. Matter -- Death -- Spirit. Or, head down(XII), then Death (XIII), then head up (XIV). Letting Go, Gone, Getting Back At It. Death is the grand transition, seen in this way, a magical, mystical bridge between two worlds. As I look at the three cards together, Death's flowering banner silently says it all. "Life, you are the leaving of many deaths. No doubt I have died myself ten thousand times before." (Whitman)

I agree!
I have already said what I think about it, in the Tarot the Sun is always rising to me.
But why this gray sky? after all is neither a night, nor a dawn…it seems more like the sky after a storm, when the sun is rising again. And if we see the image only the "king" is death, even the horse, the skeleton, and the other person are still alive, and all the landscape is alive, the trees, the water, the self Sun…So I keep thinking this card isn't about Death it self, but about change and specially REVOLUTION against the traditional powers…That's why the King and the Bishop. The other persons are very young and with flowers in hand and head, they are innocents, don't have nothing to fear. So, there is an Ideology after this card, at least to me.
But wanna add something more about the symbol of the Cave.
After all is not strange at all that this card had a Cave, traditionally it has always been seen as the entrance of crypt but also the entrance to a new physical life by the uterus ( as I said in my blog when talking about the Halloween at www.tarotofmaximo.blogspot.com )

Sun on the Death card again again again

Well! This has certainly been an interesting discussion with many
opinions. I think I'll side with Thirteen's view for now that it is a new
Sun rising. I also liked what RChMI said about "giving one hope."
The one thing we all must have is hope!

Dulcimer said:

And finally; yes, Tarotbear, I take the Tarot seriously. If death was wearing a fez I might think otherwise. But whether or not it is for my own good is not for you to judge.

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I didn't 'judge' anything; all I did is make a statement that the sun can rise or set.

And I think you take being serious much too seriously. Having a sense of humor does not indicate a lack of respect for the tarot. I think Death in a Fez can still be taken seriously.

I also think people around here tend get their knickers tied in a knot over the goddamndest things. My comment is a generalization at best and not directed at any one person although you somehow feel that it is directed at you personally. Chill out.

Well there are crosses, but I still think it's a person on the shore. It reminds me of the movie "War of the worlds" when they see the river with all the people floating in it

I guess that fits the card at least...

text vs. true conversation

I agree with Tarotbear that people get all upset over stuff far too easily. I think it is the weakness of text as opposed to true human contact. When a person is right there in front of me, I can hear tone of voice, see facial expressions, catch the "spirit" of the conversation, and with text all i am left with are mere written words. Not the same at all, no flesh on the bare bones. We all need to chill a bit.

And now we know (and perhaps have experienced) the reason that symbols are everlasting and that the written word (usually) needs the accompanying symbolic ritual to complete its intented purpose.

Whether the Sun is rising or setting may truly be depedent on the level of understaning of the individual interpreting or studying the card... And perhaps what the card will impart for that person at the moment that they encounter it in their own unique circumstances.

Interesting aside though, look at the composition of the figure of the Knight in XIII and that of the Knight of Cups.

Thanks RChMI and rainwolf- I am always looking at these cards and see something new each time(with others help). Apparently Pamela Colman Smith drew more than inspiration for the Death card from an Durer engraving of a knight. If you look at all the horses in the rest of the deck - the Bridles, bits, halters, trims and stirrups are all the same; on the Death card these dressage? bits and peices are very different; even the horse looks like a different hand has drawn it.
Anyways I was looking up the influences from Hans Holbein's 'The Dance of Death' and have personally changed horses myself. Whereas I thought the Sun was setting, I now tend to think it is rising because the last image of Holbein is the soul overcoming death; neither does Tarot end with Death so as other posters have said' it is about Hope as well' When I have lost a loved one I have felt it was the Sun going down. So I looked in all my art books to see what I could find and in the main it is Death and a new Horizon, right back to ancient times. I recant.~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

I now tend to think it is rising because the last image of Holbein is the soul overcoming death; neither does Tarot end with Death so as other posters have said' it is about Hope as well'

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Certainly a good case can be made for either. I've been reading a lot of Waite's writings and have come to the conclusion that at it's deepest, most mystical sense it was, for Waite, the setting sun. This is the point at which one enters into the "sanctuary of the mystical death" where the sun becomes what is known as the "midnight Sun" that is found in the darkness within. A place where the "darkness deepens ye." The sun is to be reborn as an inner, rather than an outer light.

This does not mean that it is not the rising sun in another sense. In the descent of the Tree of Life the two towers represent Geburah and Chesed and the light is that of the Sun of Tiphareth rising between them.

Mary