I actually don't believe tarot works anymore

Barleywine said:

I also postulate that it's the subconscious at work. It would seem to come under the umbrella of psychological mentalism (not the "stage magic" performing art), which focuses on the subjects of cognition and cognitive processes. I know I've talked a lot about "sunconscious induction" and causal vs. accidental involvement with the the cards, but in the end it seems to be primarily a mystical experience roughly paralleling Crowley's Equinox sub-title "The Method of Science; the Aim of Religion". The reader's challenge is to translate that non-verbal perception into intelligible and practical terms, either for self-understanding or to provide insights to the querent. I sometimes think of it as "explaining yourself to yourself" in an allusive and impressionistic way. But I do find astrology much more useful for psychological profiling.

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I also feel that Tarot gets more powerful when combined with Astrological and Qabalistic attributions for interpretating the images chosen by our subconsciousness. When they all work together, I believe it can be truly powerful.

How they work, if one asks, my answer would be, well it's a mystery. Like Crowley said "omnia exeunt in mysterium" - everything ends in mystery.

Too many wonderful replies in this thread have resonated for me to quote them all... But I'm basically in the "Tarot as a tool" category. Sometimes I predict with it, sometimes it helps to analyze feelings and situations, sometimes both, or neither. I don't really fight to pin the Tarot down, like I may have in years before; I view it as an intriguing source of potential life lessons, and what/who or wherever the 'teacher' of those lessons may be doesn't seem to matter, in the end.

Also, re: AprilShowers & Sztar's earlier posts:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=4736805
I was reminded of a book that they and others reading this thread might find interesting: 'The Sense of Being Stared At' by Rupert Sheldrake. I'd like to share an experience, too, which led to my first reading it, about ten years ago...

I had just taken a shower and was about to get dressed, having seated on the bed to don socks, when I suddenly heard and felt a sort of vibrating inner cacophony, within and around the right side of my head. A second later came a mental 'flash' of my then roommate/FWB's face wearing a strange, creepy expression.

Immediately, I froze, slowly turned my head to the right, towards the intuited energy source... And my eyes fell directly on the shape of a small webcam: 'innocently' hidden, tucked among other desktop items, about three feet away. Sickened as I knew he was watching, I turned it away and then carefully called out his name. Through the door, from the livingroom to my left came the reply. The guarded, anxious tone of his "...What?" confirmed all.

Pretending that I'd simply found a carelessly misplaced cam -- now safely aimed away from harm -- I didn't even mention it. Instead, I benignly reminded him of our having to soon leave for work, quickly finished getting dressed and then waited. Upon hearing him start up the shower, I snuck over to his laptop in the livingroom and saw his media player minimized to the Taskbar. I clicked it open, hit 'Play', and sure enough, there I was -- surreally replaying that whole "event" as he had seen it. I then maniacally scanned for any more such vids, still finding only the one.

Sooo... DELETED, confronted, etc., etc., etc.. He was visibly shaken and shocked that I'd 'somehow' caught him, insisting that he'd never done it before -- which may even be true, based on how oddly vigilant it seems my senses were then. It was obviously a disturbing experience, but at least later an interesting one, particularly in how that sense of being stared at can apparently even 'work' indirectly, via the wrong end of a webcam.

Things don't need for us to believe in them in order for them to work. (and thank goodness for that!)

With tarot though I always rather got the feeling that - well, that if I did not believe in myself, then they didn't quite believe in me, either...seems with tarot anyways to be a two way street.

IndigoWaves said:

Too many wonderful replies in this thread have resonated for me to quote them all... But I'm basically in the "Tarot as a tool" category. Sometimes I predict with it, sometimes it helps to analyze feelings and situations, sometimes both, or neither. I don't really fight to pin the Tarot down, like I may have in years before; I view it as an intriguing source of potential life lessons, and what/who or wherever the 'teacher' of those lessons may be doesn't seem to matter, in the end.

Also, re: AprilShowers & Sztar's earlier posts:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=4736805
I was reminded of a book that they and others reading this thread might find interesting: 'The Sense of Being Stared At' by Rupert Sheldrake. I'd like to share an experience, too, which led to my first reading it, about ten years ago...

I had just taken a shower and was about to get dressed, having seated on the bed to don socks, when I suddenly heard and felt a sort of vibrating inner cacophony, within and around the right side of my head. A second later came a mental 'flash' of my then roommate/FWB's face wearing a strange, creepy expression.

Immediately, I froze, slowly turned my head to the right, towards the intuited energy source... And my eyes fell directly on the shape of a small webcam: 'innocently' hidden, tucked among other desktop items, about three feet away. Sickened as I knew he was watching, I turned it away and then carefully called out his name. Through the door, from the livingroom to my left came the reply. The guarded, anxious tone of his "...What?" confirmed all.

Pretending that I'd simply found a carelessly misplaced cam -- now safely aimed away from harm -- I didn't even mention it. Instead, I benignly reminded him of our having to soon leave for work, quickly finished getting dressed and then waited. Upon hearing him start up the shower, I snuck over to his laptop in the livingroom and saw his media player minimized to the Taskbar. I clicked it open, hit 'Play', and sure enough, there I was -- surreally replaying that whole "event" as he had seen it. I then maniacally scanned for any more such vids, still finding only the one.

Sooo... DELETED, confronted, etc., etc., etc.. He was visibly shaken and shocked that I'd 'somehow' caught him, insisting that he'd never done it before -- which may even be true, based on how oddly vigilant it seems my senses were then. It was obviously a disturbing experience, but at least later an interesting one, particularly in how that sense of being stared at can apparently even 'work' indirectly, via the wrong end of a webcam.

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WHOA. That's really disturbing. And a great example of intuition working *without* the cards. Tarot would be great as a follow-up to a situation like that to find out what to do next (presumably find another place to live ASAP!!) but in the moment when you get a feeling like that, you can't always lay out a reading. For me, Tarot is about learning to connect myself with this higher level of intuition so I can use it precisely in situations such as these. Good instincts!

Also, thanks for the book recommendation. Ordered!

I have gone back and forth on this very topic for so long. There were things, and instances that were so right on that I thought "this must be working", and other times when I was like "this is just a bunch of cards with such broad meanings that you just make them fit". Now, that being said I have recently come to the conclusion that as everyone said they are a "tool", and nothing more. But the tool is helping you see the situation differently, and allowing your spirit to speak to you just as other tools are for. BUT, there is something so powerful about listening to your spirit, and there are many reasons to why there are "contradictory" interpretations.

First, I would like to start with opposing interpretations. This is mainly because the card is just an energy; the question, the position, and the situation itself give it it's who, what, when and where. Which energy will react differently depending on those very things. For example, if you put electricity type energy through copper, it conducts easily, but if you try to put it through rubber you get the opposite effect. The electricity is the card. The question, position, and situation is the type of material that you put the energy through. Like the Sun in a relationship question, in an opposition position, and in a relationship where the person is asking for space; the card would read as someone wanting space is causing problems. Especially if you have a card of the 5 of Cups as the environment card. Now, if you have the Sun in a work related question, as an outcome, in a situation where you are looking to see if you should work alone; this would signify that "YES" and that you will be HAPPY, (not sad like with the previous one). Especially if you have the 8 if Pentacles as your guide meaning you did your work already, and have that to guide you.

That being said though, this is how sometimes people "get it wrong", and assume they are just making things up. The cards laid right, but the people read them wrong is usually to blame here. This would be like Edison trying to invent the lightbulb. The energy to create electricity already existed (lightning), he didn't "create" it. He just had to learn how to harness it, how to use it to our advantage. This didn't happen over night though. This took time, patience, and figuring out how the energy flowed through different material. "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that wouldn't work." - Thomas Edison Just the same as learning how to read the energy of the cards in each setting doesn't happen easily. People get it wrong, especially when they are just learning how, but that doesn't mean the cards don't work.

Now, I also don't believe that the cards have power. Just as the tea leaves or dice don't either. I believe it is the spirit inside of you gives the cards the power because we ask to hear it. It shows us the energy, the set, the setting, the who, and the what so that we can then listen to a more divine part of ourselves. So that we can make more informed decisions instead of bumbling around in the world unaware that our actions have consequences, whether good or bad. Our spirit wants us to know this, it wants us to grow, and so it gives us any tool that we are willing to use to listen.

I can understand the doubt, and I can understand the confusion on how things might seem one way, but truely be the other. I am also not saying "you are wrong, and I am right", but just saying that was the thoughts I had that convinced me that reading tarot is true, and that its more than just laying a bunch of random images down to guess if things work. That it can be 100% right as long as you understand how to really read them. When you are wrong on a reading, go back and look at it. You will see where the mistake was. Just as Edison looked back at his "failures" to show him how to get it to work.

Just my thoughts.

May Spirit be With You,
XX

I don't believe that tarot works as a future prediction device...but only for me! I can't do it. Nothing comes out right, or as I thought the cards were telling me. People's predictions for my future never turn out to be correct either. Can other people do it? Probably. Other people can do loads of things that I can't. lol But for me, it seems that tarot works best at figuring out details of the present, stuff I'm not seeing clearly, and working through the past.

Tarot, as with everything, seems to be in the hands of the reader. It's a tool and some are more skilled or can use it in different ways than others. I hold a sculpting tool and create a mass of broken ugly rock. Someone else holds a sculpting tool and they create a masterpiece. It's all in the finesse.

Absynthe said:

The possible combination of interpretations from any given set of cards is so huge that potentially any spread could mean anything. Sometimes you'll intuitively hit a right note and other times not at all. It doesn't actually have any benefit or accuracy beyond any other kind of analysis and possibly your intuition without tarot would have greater accuracy.

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Yup. That's why I personally see no value in studying the tarot imagery as if it will mean the same thing to everyone. I read intuitively by just seeing what the pictures tell me. Not, three of cups means blablabla. Cookbook meanings dictated by so-called authorities do not take into consideration who the people sitting in front of you are and why they're there.

I don't think of tarot cards as a "thing" that works or doesn't work. It is simply a way to connect with someone. They are cards with pictures on them - that's all. Someone comes to you with a question and somehow cards are chosen. They are tools - just something to distract the querent while they help you access your intuition. You could use sticks and pebbles to do a reading, too. Doesn't matter.

I agree and disagree as well.

I think a lot of "magical bullshit" has been put onto tarot cards, some I buy into some I don't. I do love small rituals and energy workings and I have seen tarot be WAY off and I have also seen it be UNCANNY with its accuracy that it is mind blowing. So I think it just depends. I don't believe it is all by chance then sometimes I think it is.

Recently I have had my own personal revelation on how a lot of "magical bullshit" logic applies too A LOT of things in life and life issues and divination as well. But I like to play, so I let it slide a little when it comes to tarot and divination, because even if they did not work at ALL, I think it would still hold a fascination for me with their systems, history and other aspects like art and perspectives.

I know you spent a lot of time with the cards, but still with the world being so big, and huge and things so mysterious, I would encourage you to still keep seeking and questioning the tarot and with the tarot why have you come to these conclusions within yourself maybe write in a journal and then ask the deck. I think like with many other things that the tarot is like a huge rushing river and most of us only can consume drops or cups or boats full in a lifetime but never the whole thing and I think there is still PLENTY to observed.

geoxena said:

I don't think of tarot cards as a "thing" that works or doesn't work. It is simply a way to connect with someone. They are cards with pictures on them - that's all. Someone comes to you with a question and somehow cards are chosen. They are tools - just something to distract the querent while they help you access your intuition. You could use sticks and pebbles to do a reading, too. Doesn't matter.

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I tend to agree with this. The cards are simply a focusing (and story-telling) device that may or may not forge a subconscious link between two people engaged in exploring them (and, for the record, I do also use pebbles for reading in my geomancy practice!) What does seem to "work" is that those two people (I never read for others in a vacuum, and I try to engage my sitters, not distract them) looking at a card from their own unique perspectives and then discussing its significance can produce a third impression that brings something new to light, ideally providing insight on the question. I think the images "speak" as frankly to the uninitiated as to the expert, just without the evocative richness and clarity available to an experienced reader. In the best situations, the realization of "accuracy" in a reading arises from within the querent, who suddenly recognizes something that makes sense in what I point out. The "predictive" value of the reading depends on what the querent does with the information received; I serve as a messenger and hopefully a facilitator of possibilities.

As I see it, intuition is an "iffy" thing, not some mystical Holy Grail of interpretive perfection. It seldom emerges fully formed like Athena from the forehead of Zeus, it sometimes provides only a vague hint or hunch, a thread to pull that has to be expanded through imagination and inspiration to turn it into the vivid observations that tarot is capable of. This is why I use the whole spectrum of resources invested in the cards: the accumulated knowledge, the visual expressiveness, the visonary - even "magical" - flights of fancy they often inspire, because it's impossible to tell in advance what might score a "hit" with the querent.

Pyrrha said:

So it's not really that tarot "works" or "doesn't work". Does it perfectly, accurately, capture other people's feelings and thoughts and your own feelings and thoughts and predict what is likely to happen? No. But does it make you think about your problems and your internal monologue and help you decide on what you should change or do? Yes. And of course many other things could make you do that, too. Tarot is one of them.

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What a great discussion. I particularly liked Pyrrha's reflections on the topic. As someone with a pretty strongly developed sceptic side, I have struggled with this issue for years. For long periods of time I'd be a complete 'believer' and then slowly would lose my connection to using tarot as a tool. Despite walking away many times I find that I am inevitably drawn back and have accepted that tarot is a path that has chosen me, rather than the other way around.