The Suit of Deniers - Fournier

Moongold

I really like the idea of looking at the Marseilles in suits and I have the suit of Deniers on the table before me now.

It is interesting to look at the coin itself, remembering what Diana has said in another thread about the Ace being important in the consideration of the whole suit. That comment is consistent with the Kabala as well as other frameworks for looking at energy in Tarot. The Aces are located in Kether and are pure energy. One way of understanding this is to see how differently the energy is represented pictorially throughout the suits. Should we be calling these cards Aces or Ones?

The Ace of Deniers is quite beautiful. Even though it represents Earth it is full of light, perhaps like an earthly sun. My sense of colour is imperfect There seems to be a flower with four petals in the centre of the Ace resting in a bed of yellow and surrounded with a circle of yellow/orange rays for want of a better word. . The impression is one of light and growth as though we are seeing what the earth can provide more than what the element itself is. Maybe that in itself is significant. Four very simple flowers grow symmetrically from the central coin. The primary colours are red, green and yellow. So although we know that earth is grounding, it is not prosaic but full of life, colour and energy.

The coins in the Ace and the Two are similar but then the energy changes the form. As one looks through the pips, the varying configurations of flowers appear and the other uniting symbols are also different. It will be interesting to discover what these differences in themselves mean. I notice that in all the suits the configuration of flowers is different.

However the coins are very different now. There is more brown and orange in them and the patterning is different. Another interesting observation is that the coins held by each of the Courts is unique. This perhaps shows how each player in this uses the energies of the suits uniquely.. The overall impression is of light, however, and this throws a completely new perspective on Earth for me. It also gives the Marseilles much more power as an interpretive tool than I thought it had.

The Roy de Deniers seems fairly matter of fact and in control of things, his hand is placed casually on a symbol of the suit balanced on his knee. He does genuinely look as if he has authority and is relaxed with it. His left elbow is resting on a cushion of some kind with a pattern on it.

The Reyne is a fascinating woman. She holds the coin right before her eyes as if she is acknowledging the significant position of Queens in the Tarot. They have executive power and this Queen is saying Yes…I know this by holding the coin so dominantly. As her role is uniques and different, so is the coin which symbolizes it. And her hand of authority is strong and sure. You know this Queen will accomplish what she has set out to do. Just as an observation, this reyne de Deniers is very elegant in her whole demeanor, which adds to the power of the image.

The Knight is extremely interesting. His coin has different patterning but is as large as that of the Queen. Now who vests the Knight with authority – the King or the Queen? I’d be interested to know. It is an intriguing question, particularly if one thinks of Camelot. Because the Knight is on a horse, I get the impression that he is active in the suit – that he actually does things and is quite significant.

And here is the Valet. He has two coins, one in his hand and one on the ground. What does this mean? His denier is most like the King’s and he wears a hat similar to the King. Does this mean his service is mainly to the King? Whereas the Valet de Baton has a huge, unhewn Baton, one doesn’t get the impression that this Valet de Denier has been entrusted with energy in the same way.

It will be interesting to look at the other suits in a similar way, perhaps just to start with. I realize that these thoughts perhaps belong in a Journal but maybe others can also see something in doing this.

Moongold
 

Le_Corsair

Thank you, Moongold.

It's nice to see a serious analysis of the Fournier. I think the other variants of the Marseilles (Hadar, Camoin, Conver) have received more than their fair share of the attention in the past, and it is nice to see some remarks on the Fournier other than "the pretty Marseilles with the colored suits."

Bob :THERM
 

Alta

I have moved this thread here at Moongold's request. Marion
 

Jewel-ry

I have laid out my suit of deniers too and the thing that strikes me immediately is that the denier of the Valet and the King is so much smaller than that of the Queen and the Knight. In the case of the King, I can understand it somewhat, as he may have concentrated and refined his power, in other words, mastered his element. In the case of the Valet however, I am unsure of its significance.

I can see that in this case it makes sense to put the Valet in the service of the King and the Knight in the service of the Queen. In fact, my mind ran away with me and before I knew it I was questioning the relationship between the Queen and her Knight. When thinking of Camelot, as you did Moongold, didn't the Knights defend the honour of the Queen. It is easy to see how they may become quite attached to each other.

The other thing I should like to know is if the Valet shows 'choice'. After all, he has the one denier in his hand and is observing it intently, whilst the other lays on the ground either discarded or buried. Furthermore, his feet point in completely different directions. I have seen this stance before in the Lovers card.

My other observations are simply the size of the coins which starts large in the Ace, reduces in the two, and even more in the three. It then stays the same size up until the Valet, when it changes as discussed previously. Is this significant? I started to think about the Kabbalah and have a faint idea that the first three sephira (sp) form their own triangle? And that these first three sephira (sp) are more important. Just rambling ... I don't even know if its significant.

I shall ponder more..

J :)
 

Rusty Neon

Moongold said:
And here is the Valet. He has two coins, one in his hand and one on the ground. What does this mean? His denier is most like the King’s and he wears a hat similar to the King. Does this mean his service is mainly to the King? Whereas the Valet de Baton has a huge, unhewn Baton, one doesn’t get the impression that this Valet de Denier has been entrusted with energy in the same way.

In the context of Moongold's post, it's interesting about the coin that's in or on the ground in the Valet of Coins card. This may suggest that the Valet is not putting all of his time, energy, money and effort in one basket. Thus, the coin in or on the ground may be left in reserve. Alternatively, perhaps the Valet of Coins card can exemplify the principle of prudent investment and the virtues of investing, however small the investment. He invests the coin in his hand, and the coin in or on the ground is the return on investment. The coin in or on the ground is the same size as the one in his hand. Even conservatively, he has doubled his investment.

On the other hand, we see the Knight of Coins mesmerized by the coin in the air. This may be a person who is less careful, less cautious in the world of commerce and can be manipulated. He may not have learned the lessons that he should have when he was still a page (Valet).

We see the Queen of Coins holding the largest coin. She has been a wise user and investor of money, or a skilled businessperson. Or she is a dissipator of other people's wealth?

The King of Coins holds a coin roughly the same size as the Valet's. The king looks the other way, away from his coin, disinterestedly. Has the king's wealth dissipated through lack of care? Or, rather, has he been a loving father who has provided for his children out of wealth or been a philanthropist, not moved to the accumulation of money and goods for its own sake?
 

Moongold

This is really good - to get such rich alternative suggestions.

I simply used the Fournier because I love it. This is as much an exercise in understanding the Marseilles for people who are as relatively new to it as I am, as showcasing the Fournier.

If others would like to join in, the principles and many of the symbols would be the same. They seem to be with my Conver anyway.

So, please join in if you you think it would be helpful and you don't actually have a Fournier. :) Perhaps, simply say what Marseilles deck you are using.


Moongold
 

WolfyJames

Re: Re: The Suit of Deniers - Fournier

Rusty Neon said:
In the context of Moongold's post, it's interesting about the coin that's in or on the ground in the Valet of Coins card. This may suggest that the Valet is not putting all of his time, energy, money and effort in one basket. Thus, the coin in or on the ground may be left in reserve. Alternatively, perhaps the Valet of Coins card can exemplify the principle of prudent investment and the virtues of investing, however small the investment. He invests the coin in his hand, and the coin in or on the ground is the return on investment. The coin in or on the ground is the same size as the one in his hand. Even conservatively, he has doubled his investment.

On the other hand, we see the Knight of Coins mesmerized by the coin in the air. This may be a person who is less careful, less cautious in the world of commerce and can be manipulated. He may not have learned the lessons that he should have when he was still a page (Valet).

The Valet being the first level of hierarchy, we can guess the Valet worked hard at his position, being stable and carefull with his money. He had goals and achieved them. Now, after his hard work, he gains a higher position in the hierarchy, and a bigger paycheck, as a Cavalier. He has more money than he needs, and he becomes careless with it, lives in luxury. He even looks a bit greedy, worried, scared to lose his comfort. His horse is very similar to the Rider-Waite Smith's Knight of Pentacles, this horse is slow and fat, not made for running races. This Cavalier is very much like his horse, he doesn't like changes, anything that moves too fast. He wants to show his latest adornements, not run in races.
 

Fulgour

Hi Moongold

Moongold said:
If others would like to join in, the principles and many of the symbols would be the same.
With the suit of coins, I especially like how there are, in this suit only,
certain of the cards which you simply cannot tell if they are reversed
or not... oh sure, maybe under a microscope, but why spoil the fun?