'Tarot' meaning 'hole-maker'?

tmgrl2

Just courious, kwaw,...why would we not go down the path of the French word augure
as meaning an omen; a sign?

from tarrier/tarier (an augur)...to the French augure n.m. an augur, soothsayer....with verb augurer to conjecture or surmise....(sorry I left out the accents marks).

or were you trying to go down the path of the meaning connected to the tool that makes the hole, and thus, the hole.....?


Since the word augur (for tariere)...means borer or auger, could we not simply go down the path of the multiple meaning for the word augur...as soothsayer....which sends me to the expression...

In sooth, forsooth...in truth...not necessarily divination, but "to say the
truth."

I was just looking through definitions in my old Cassell's New French Dictionary (1951)

Letting my mind roam a little more after looking at this definition for augur

http://www.bartleby.com/61/6/A0520600.html

and thinking of "a sign" or "omen" that would be interpreted....and connecting it to "the hole." ...I am reminded of the black dot (I often think of the opening to a hole when I see a black dot..like a black hole)..Treasure Island...

a sign or omen....meaning ...death? a warning?

...also a black dot (the Hindu black dot on the forehead)...symbol of beauty, but also, mystical...the third eye...spiritual sight....

a hole, a black dot, an augur (makes the hole) an augur (the sign to be read, an omen)...rambling...I love to play with words.
 

kwaw

tmgrl2 said:
Just courious, kwaw,...why would we not go down the path of the French word augure
as meaning an omen; a sign?

from tarrier/tarier (an augur)...to the French augure n.m. an augur, soothsayer....with verb augurer to conjecture or surmise....(sorry I left out the accents marks).

Well, tarierre/tarots does not mean augur as in divination, but auger as in an instrument to make holes, and while there is possible wordplay in English between auger/augur, such does not perhaps exist in French between Tarots/Augure.

Certainly in English there is a play on words to be made, and I have examples of such being made, between Auger [hole maker] and Augur [divination], examples that extend to the play between them and Auguste [theatrical term for a 'circus clown, usually silent, who follows and mimics ring master, tries to join in with other performers, and ends by getting in everyones way'].

In English we may say of 'augur' [divination] as verb 'it augurs well'; be a sign of foretelling, forecast, to predict, prophesy, bode, foreshadow, promise, presage, portend, herald, betoken, harbinger, as noun seer, soothsayer, prophet, oracle. On terms of portending, presaging, at the beginning of things we see it in the root of in-augur-ation, meaning:

baptism, debut, initiation, introduction, launch, beginning, commencement, rite of passage, crowning, enthronement, investiture, anointing, creation, investing, appointment, installation, establishment, foundation, institution, formation, setting up, founding, creation, etc.

Euripide wrote - "I did come across an interesting snippet about the arabic origins of the root 'tara' of tarocchi, menaning to throw away excess - ie discarding unwanted cards.

- "the 'auger' possibly derives from the same 'tare' root, because the process of drilling a hole creates waste or excess.

one could also draw analogies from the tare, a kind of fodder plant, a noxious weed among corn. 'something useless sown among something good' (etymonline.com)

the modern word 'tare' (somewhat obsolete, I think? or just not one that I hear?) means 'difference between gross and net weight' and does come from the 'thing discarded' tara/tarah root also. from middle french "wastage in goods, deficiency, imperfection'."

To which we may add a possible wordplay on 'Augur' as 'Augean' meaning "abominably filthy, resembling the stables of Augeus, uncleansed for many years, which Hercules cleansed by diverting the river Alpheus [alpha-aleph?] through them."

This does not deflect from the fact that this is English wordplay; but we may perhaps find refuge in the genre of inter-lingistic wordplay [punning on words between various languages] common for the period?

A modern day etymologist may say such word play is ridiculous and erroneous, but the period was ubiquitous with ridiculous and erroneous etymology:p And the 'game' of tarot, was a verbal as well as a countng [and morally instructive] one. Offering education in rhetoric, arithmetic and [moral] philosophy!

Kwaw
 

tmgrl2

Thanks, kwaw!!

I see the distinction between augur and auger....at the end of my post, I was trying to leap from

hole

to

black hole/black spot

to

omen or sign to be read....

I totally agree with the idea of word play......As a speech/language pathologist, and student of linguistics, I often introduced word play into my lessons...along with conjecture as to how multiple meanings for words, meanings that seemed so "different" could have come about.

terri
 

venicebard

kwaw said:
A modern day etymologist may say such word play is ridiculous and erroneous, but the period was ubiquitous with ridiculous and erroneous etymology:p And the 'game' of tarot, was a verbal as well as a countng [and morally instructive] one. Offering education in rhetoric, arithmetic and [moral] philosophy!
Agree on all points. Moreover, multiple meanings packed into a single term is the province of the very creators of tarot themselves, if they be (as I maintain) 'poet-Gnostics', meaning trained poets with an interest in or obsession with (I opt for the latter) magic. The seed of magic, in a sense, is more-than-one meanings' ability to occupy the same 'space'. [Edited to add: Of course, we mustn't forget that the term tarot may not have been around in the beginning, when the general term for the game was triumphs, and how long the knowledge underlying the trumps' creation survived alongside the cards is anybody's guess.]

I am still a bit intrigued by the link to English tare but can't yet quite put my finger on why. And what exactly would gross and net mean in the game? (The game, to me, is tarot's proper setting: I wish I understood the game better.) If the link to tare can be made with enough clarity, light thus shed should confirm-or-deny the pun on 'hole'.
 

DoctorArcanus

Pianigiani Ethymological Dictionary

The Pianigiani Ethymological Dictionary (Vocabolario Etimologico di Pianigiani), first published in 1907, is available on the internet.

http://www.etimo.it/?term=tarocchi&find=Cerca

It suggests that the word "Tarocchi" means "covered with holes", with reference to XV Century gold-leaf cards. "Tara" means "hole" in Italian, and "tarato" is often used with the meaning of "fool" (one who has holes in his way of reasoning, one whose brain is damaged). This could be related to Folengo's "tarocus" quoted by Ross.

tarocchi fr. “tarots” , from which “tarotè” marked with signs like in the tarot; ted. tarok : ancient Italian cards game also said Minchiate, more ancient than Picchetto, which is of French origin. Heyse says that tarot comes from Egypt. Tarocchi cards are often painted with finesse, like miniature on a golden background. They are covered with small points that form graceful arabesques and framed by a silver edge, on which the points represent a tape that turns like a spiral. Without a doubt this TARA (i.e. an impression print made of small holes aligned with order - low Latin “tarare” to pierce, similar to the classic “terere” to beat) must have given the name to the tarocchi, of which the current cards remember the ancient origin, when they have the back covered with arabesques or small points in black or color. Some note that the French “tarot” also indicated a dice, having on every side many black holes, whose name could have passed to the game of cards.
 

venicebard

DoctorArcanus said:
It suggests that the word "Tarocchi" means "covered with holes", with reference to XV Century gold-leaf cards. "Tara" means "hole" in Italian, and "tarato" is often used with the meaning of "fool" (one who has holes in his way of reasoning, one whose brain is damaged).
. . .
venicebard said:
And what exactly would gross and net mean in the game? If the link to tare can be made with enough clarity, light thus shed should confirm-or-deny the pun on 'hole'.
Would this make sense: tare as the left-overs from cutting holes, and the block of a single die as the fool on which are punched the 21 holes or trumps. Gross is the block and the trumps, net just the trumps minus the block. (Just thinking aloud without having gone back to reread the thread.)
 

kwaw

kwaw said:
Taroccáre - to play at Tarócchi. Also to play the forward gull or peevish ninnie.[/i]

The Italian-English Dictionary of Ferdinando Altieri Published 1726 also gives to storm, fume, rage, bluster, swear, fret;; probably related to the meaning of 'dispute' 'altercation' as given under number 7 of Ross Caldwell listing of proposed origins of the word here:

http://www.geocities.com/anytarot/etymology.html

Altieri also gives the interesting Italian fool of the tarot saying essere come il matto fra tarocchi (esser per tutto) (a version of which is given by Paul Huson in Mystical Origins of the Tarot p.76).

DictTaroccare.jpg


Kwaw
 

DianeOD

On the other hand -

Harkening back to an earlier thought ..raised by tmgrl2:

tmgrl2 said:
Just courious, kwaw,...why would we not go down the path of the French word augure as meaning an omen; a sign?

from tarrier/tarier (an augur)...to the French augure n.m. an augur, soothsayer....with verb augurer to conjecture or surmise....
or were you trying to go down the path of the meaning connected to the tool that makes the hole, and thus, the hole.....?

Since the word augur (for tariere)...means borer or auger, could we not simply go down the path of the multiple meaning for the word augur...as soothsayer....Letting my mind roam a little more ...and thinking of "a sign" or "omen" that would be interpreted....and connecting it to "the hole." ....

Just for pleasure, "Let me count the Ways":

Auguring days.....
CalendarPeggingColigny4thC.jpg


Auguring ways ....by sea...
CaananitePhoenician mariner's equipment
KohlBirdtamu.jpg


Auguring ways .... by land and star...
Pegging directions Caravan cities (alJawf)
AramcoalJawfWheelTrapAstrolabe.jpg


Bird-holder trap, North Africa
The original Wheel trap
Wheeltrappicture41920611_a.jpg

Astrolabe means "star-gripper/holder"

Playing Augur? - no, this is probably the real thing: Nabataean calendar pegging. Note that the Nabateans (of inland near east) also had substantial colonies in Italy...

Calendar-pegging Nabataea
NabteanCalendarBoardgame.jpg


... just a thought ....
 

kwaw

Some very interesting 'points'.

;)
Kwaw