SG - Reincarnation~ Topic: hell

napaea

well, i thought we could at least talk about this to start off.

i grew up in a very strict, crazy Christian home. so i was taught there was heaven, hell, satan, devils, angels, etc.
and even now, years later after all the studying i've done and beliefs i have changed, i still find that if i do something "wrong" (whatever that is) i worry about getting in trouble. or upsetting god. or the universe.

but really, if i believe in reincarnation - that the soul continues to come back to learn and grow spiritually - then what would be the purpose of a hell? who would really be there if we are all on a continual journey? and if we live life after life learning, what would be the point of a devil?

so i don't really think i believe in hell...what about you guys?
 

Diana

Oh napaea: I can only give a very cliched reply here. Heaven, hell, devils, Satan and angels do exist. They are part of our own reality that we carry around with us in our hearts and minds.

And when you do something "wrong", there will be consequences. But not in an after-life.

Anyway, you are such a nice person that the gods will forgive you, I promise!

:)
 

napaea

hee hee hee!
thanks Diana, no nightmares for me tonight! ;)
 

Alissa

I was also raised a Christian, but felt it necessary to leave that behind in search of my own personal truths. Part of that was due to my belief in reincarnation that the Christian people I spoke to couldn't accept in any way shape or form in their spiritual lives.

But I couldn't accept the reality of their Christian world either -- with hell and the Devil, etc etc -- on many levels.

Now, I believe that we are each on our own spiritual path, and each "evolved" and ready for only so much of the greater spiritual mysteries to be absorbed into our lives in a lifetime.

I believe that the greatest duty we have in a life is to seek our spiritual path, and follow it with Divine guidance in any way we can find it in our lives.

Some souls, to me, are not ready for "big" mysteries. Just like you wouldn't get pissed at a 6 year old for not understanding Calculus, even though you "explained it" to them, is the way I feel about their spiritual understanding. Each soul is ready for a certain amount, depending on where they are at in their own path.

Some souls, early on perhaps, have just come to a lifetime where religion becomes necessary. They are here to learn compassion, and religion (in it's truest sense, and not the political sense) is good to teach that. They learn the 10 commandments, and need their spiritual rules given to them in black and white. The way we teach young ones life rules.

Don't cross the road without looking both ways, or you will get hurt = Don't murder, or steal from people, or you will go to Hell.

Nice clean rules, understandable, with a formula answer to what happens when we die. This is all a less-advanced soul is ready to accept, understand, and/or incorporate into their own reality.

However, I believe that as we advance, we reject the simple rules we were given early (often by our religions) and learn to think and question for ourselves. We find our own answers to our own questions by going directly to the Source, however we perceive that Divinity. That's a more advanced path though, and not easy -- one that not everyone is ready for and here this time to do (as YOU may very well be).

So the purpose of these concepts (hell, the Devil, etc) to me is to serve those who can only frame their spirituality around these basic, (simplistic if you will) concepts. They are invalid just because they may not be an answer for you or me, but they are answers for others, and I just leave it at that.

Which is also, incidentally, a good way for treating overzealous Christians who want to "win you back to God" -- I get that at times -- to remember they are usually enthusiastic spiritual "children" who want you to be "o.k." in the way they understand it. For me, it's easy not to feel threatened when they sometimes attack my own beliefs when I think of them as merely kids who don't really know the big picture yet, but may someday.

Somebody whack me if I'm babbling here.... I'm posting a lot earlier and without coffee today, which is making me feel random 8)
 

napaea

i do see what you are saying.
i don't really see a purpose for hell anymore. at the time, like you said, it was: bad guys go to hell, and that is how i know how to behave...don't be bad. as i grow and start to trust my intuition, and believe in the divine in me, i don't need such constrictive parameters.

and i do relate to what youre saying about zealous christians!
some of my family there! but i want to try to understand them and see them without doing what they do. you know how the church always says people that don't know christ are "blinded"?
i don't want to see people like that! i believed that for so long, and it is so condescending! i feel bad, almost, for all the people i tried to "save" or "witnessed" to.

and now some in my family are like you said, worried for me cause i have "strayed". i really want to just be like my uncle, who is a big guy in the Vedanta, and just be "whatever you need".
but it is so easy to want to argue my point, or get mad because they are so limited. but like you said, i guess they need that structure for whatever reason.
 

napaea

hey, also, where does "purgatory" fit into this?
i know not everyone believes in this, but there is a "bardo" stage in reincarnation, where you are sort of stocking up your energy, i guess, and doing whatever you need to do before the next life. do you think maybe this is part of the concept of purgatory? or could it be?
 

Sinta

Well I have a strange way of thinking of heaven and hell.. i do believe they are there.. but in this way.

It's strange i know. My beliefs are based on christianity, but the way i believe it.

God will give man what he wants at the end. He will give man his afterlife by judging it to fit what he has done in his real life. For example. If a man lives a peaceful and caring life, he will receive a life of peace and loving.

If a man lives a life, killing murdering, stealing, doing crime, with brutality, well God being so good will look upon it like the person wants to live in a life like that.. and gives it to him.. a life of pain, torture, unhappiness and injustice.

I believe heaven/hell how you call it.. will be how you make it through your life.

Any thoughts on this?

Oh and i dont believe in purgatory ;)
 

Minderwiz

The Cathars or Albigenses who flourished in the late twelfth century believed that 'hell' was this life on Earth and that death would take them to a better place. They also believed in reincarnation and that through successive incarnations people could cleanse themselves

Hell though was not looked at in the Christian sense - the material world was created by Satan and therefore they took a dualist stance - God was pure love and evil therefore was the result of another almost co-equal power.

Only through attaining higher consciousness and living up to the ideals of Christ's word could we achieve union with God.

They rejected the sacraments, said that leading a good life was the route to God and did good. Needless to say they were exterminated by the Catholic Church who launched a crusade against them in 1209.

However the point is that the did reconcile reincarnation and Hell.

From what I have read about them I find myself very sympathetic to them and any pagans or Wiccans on the site may find their beliefs interesting.

Minderwiz
 

napaea

Really there were a lot of Christians that believed in reincarnation, back in the day. Back before they changed the bible to read the way they wanted it to.
I mean, Jesus himself says that John the baptist was a previous prophet, I think Jeremiah. so what was he saying? if he meant "John is a good prophet LIKE Jeremiah was" then he would have said this. but he said this is Jeremiah. hello?

i don't believe in purgatory either. i just wondered if those that did might consider that it could also be the "bardo" stage of reincarnation.

i can see how they believed that this life was hell. thanks for bringing them up, Miderwiz. i've never heard of that actual group before!
 

cricket

Ah, purgatory... Now we're getting to where my personal beliefs step in. IMO there is a purgatory. A soul can choose to spend time there, just as it can choose to spend time in a more peaceful place, and as it can choose whether to be born in a body that will have a (more or less) chaotic or peaceful life. I say 'more or less' because there are always some things beyond our control. There are lots of other souls out there that bump into our own and knock us out of the pretty little rut we've put ourselves into. Call it fate, call it karma, call it God/dess' will, call it whatever you want to - it happens.

Our souls choose to go places and do things to learn. If they choose to go to purgatory and face what awaits them there, there is probably a reason for it. What if they need time there to 'stock up' on appropriate amount of rage and violence for the next life? How about if it's a prelude to a peaceful life? Maybe they go to learn how to find peace in turbulent times. (Think Joan of Arc here - according to what I understand, she refused to be rattled until she was actually in flames.) Who knows?

As to heaven and hell, they simply don't exist IMO. They're either gross exaggerations of purgatory and the peaceful place of rest or something that was 'made up' to scare children into being good - much like the bogeyman. As someone said earlier, they're geared toward those that need something simplistic. "Go to sleep, or the bogeyman's going to get you" is something similar to "Do something bad and you're going straight to hell in a handbasket". Many people -do- believe in heaven, hell, and the bogeyman ;) and that's just fine. I personally don't. I much prefer to think that you get what you dish out in the universe's own sweet time. Maybe not in this life, but it will come.