Do you need a spread?

I am relatively new to tarot, and I have tried readings with and without a spread. I find that spreads can be advantageous as they are more prescriptive. However, I am siding towards doing more readings without a spread as I find the readings a bit more accurate.

Just wondering what others thinkA? I have read in other threads that some feel new readers should think of avoiding non-spread readings, and I can see the logic of that. In others' experience is this an absolute?

How are you laying the cards if not in a spread? Are you shuffling, then reading the top one, or do you lay 3-4 cards out and read them without using a prescribed meaning for each position? I think either way can be ok if that works better for you and gives a story in relatio to the question.

I have heard of people then moving the cards around to where they think they fit better, I don't feel that this is purely tarot, more likely that the reader is psychic (even if they don't realise it) and using the cards partially or wholly as a tool .

As in life, there are no absolutes. If its accurate, reliable, works for you and you are happy with it, then use what works for you.

This is my opinion:

Chiriku said:

This is a matter of personal preference. I disfavor the "three cards with no positions" method. Some people take to this like a fish to water and are able to spin coherent narratives out of three positionless cards (see, for example, the Robert Place method)....However, quite a few people on this forum who are in the beginning stages of learning (i.e. first few years of studying tarot) use this method simply because they see others around them using it, despite the fact that they struggle to get clear answers from it. For those people, I recommend either:

(1) spreads with predetermined positions [such as the ones people post in the Tarot Spreads sub-forum]

or

(2) the deconstructed spread method-- i.e. ask one specific question and put down ONE card to answer it; ask a second specific question, and put down ONE card to answer it; and so on and so forth until all your questions are answered. Again, this is in essence a spread, just deconstructed into one-by-one questions and answers.

In general, I feel the "throw down a few cards without positions" method should, by default, be avoided unless the person has had a great deal of practice and knows that they are comfortable with and ADEPT at this storytelling approach to reading. Many people continue to use this method even though they are by no means adept at it and then wonder why their answers are never clear.

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I don't often spend time in the Your Readings sub-forum but every time I swing by there, examples of this phenomenon--of people who are clearly not adept at and who are confused by 3- (or even 5- or 6- or 7-, by God) card positionless "throws" yet continuing to use them, thread after thread--are in full force. On occasion, other posters or mods point this out to them, but they choose to continue with their position-less throws...and they continue posting threads asking for clarification of their readings. And they continue falling prey to the natural human tendency to read what they want into the cards. After all, they can do that when there are no external signposts or guidelines such as a spread position to guide their interpretation of the card.

Many people say that "a good reading starts with a good question." Very true. However, what many don't seem to equally recognize is that a "good question" IS a spread position. They are synonymous in the sense that in every pre-determined spread, each position answers a very specific (i.e. "good" or well-constructed) question.

e.g. The Celtic Cross--which is by no means a favorite of mine in the world of spreads-- has an "environmental" position, a position that discusses how one's friends, family and general environment contribute to the Seeker's issue. This position is, in essence, asking the specific question: 'How do the people in my environment affect me with respect to X issue?" The card that ends up in that position is the answer to that very specific, well-crafted question.

For people who don't like pre-determined positions, there is Option #2 above--the deconstructed spread i.e. the "conversation"-style reading.

If after trying many spreads including ones of your own composition and tried and true ones in popular long threads on this sub-forum as well as trying the deconstructed/conversation method, you still feel that a "general question with a few cards thrown down for me to make sense of" gives you clearer answers and more effective advice than the former methods, by all means, embrace the positionless "throw."

Thank you Chiriku, it was your posting you quoted that had me asking this question.

I do take your point that new readers need guideance, and that spreads give that structure which help the process. I also agree that the celtic cross spread, while being a very popular spread, is not my cup of tea.

Your deconstructed spread is an interesting notion and one that I will try, along with other spreads before making a decision to put spreads aside.

Shells I do shuffle, and in fact pic the cards 'at random' instead of top of deck. While I do agree with your card-moving point in positions if there are no positions and all cards are equal why could you not move them for clarity?

I guess I am just one for being different. That being said there is strong advice to use what is proven and effective.

So may I ask another related question.

I have viewed a few of the reading exchange threads, and most appear to be three cards listed with no description of a spread. Would I be incorrect in assuming this was a positionless system and the spread was not clarified?

Garrettlonewolfe said:

So may I ask another related question.

I have viewed a few of the reading exchange threads, and most appear to be three cards listed with no description of a spread. Would I be incorrect in assuming this was a positionless system and the spread was not clarified?

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Yes, Garrettlonewolfe, those sound like positionless throws. And yes, they are very popular on the reading sections of this site--not just Your Readings but also the Reading Exchange. Were positionless throws the best choice for some of those readers? Sure. Were they the best choice or even a good choice for most of them? No, not in my opinion. Not because the readers may be relative beginners (after all, for some beginners, positionless throws speak much more clearly and rationally; that's just the way their brains work), but because those readers don't work well with positionless throws.

Stick around those two sub-forums long enough and I think you'll see what I mean by "don't work well." It often means readers doing self-readings on very fraught personal issues and choosing to construe the 3 or 5 or whatever cards in a way that lines up with what they want or wish or believe to be true. Other times, it means just sheer frustration and confusion-- "I don't understand what the cards are trying to tell me here!" Well, if you have done this sort of reading a lot (i.e. practiced) and still remain in the dark, perhaps you are not well-suited to weaving stories in a free-form way from images; perhaps you have, rather, the sort of brain that becomes more creative and flexible when faced with boundaries or "restraints" (it sounds paradoxical but it isn't).

In other words, do not look to how many people use positionless throws; look instead to *how* each reader uses this technique and to what degree of efficacy and utility.

Garrettlonewolfe said:

Thank you Chiriku, it was your posting you quoted that had me asking this question.

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You're welcome. Thank you for taking into consideration multiple viewpoints. This will help you arrive at your own conclusions, whatever those may be.

Garrettlonewolfe said:

Your deconstructed spread is an interesting notion and one that I will try, along with other spreads before making a decision to put spreads aside.

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I love a deconstructed spread--also known as "conversation"-style readings; you are having a back-and-forth question and answer session with the Tarot.

I think you should try ALL methods, including positionless throws. Otherwise, you will never learn which styles you work best with.

And I don't believe in putting anything completely to one side. A couple of years ago, I made it a goal of mine to learn different approaches to positionless readings (for instance, the Robert Place method) and I practiced them exclusively for several months. The querents were very happy with my results and I added positionless throws to my repertoire of possible reading techniques.

I also must note that I very often use positionless throws with certain STYLES of decks as well--namely, Marseilles-style and other pips decks (that is, decks with non-scenic Minor Arcana). I rarely use spreads with such decks because my brain finds spreads limiting with them as compared to with scenic decks; I get better results with such decks without the spreads.

I still prefer formal, pre-determined spreads for important self-readings such as Birthday, Samhain/Halloween, exploring a deep personal challenge, etc. One of my favorite things to do is to compose spreads so on some level, I will always be "a spread person"---but I don't insist on spreads in situations, such as those above, where I feel a positionless throw will be more effective or resonant.

So, as you can see, in my own life, I use all manner of reading techniques and styles--but the key is that I do not insist upon adhering to one technique after I have had a pattern of lackluster results with it. I adapt and expand my usage accordingly.

I recommend the same attitude to you and wish you good luck with your experimentations.


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Garrettlonewolfe said:

While I do agree with your card-moving point in positions if there are no positions and all cards are equal why could you not move them for clarity?

I guess I am just one for being different. That being said there is strong advice to use what is proven and effective.

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I'm an artist and photographer, so I equate it to knowing the rules so you know when and how to break them to be effective. I am also one for being different, not reading instructions and doing things my way etc, but in regards to tarot, my feeling is that learning/using traditional methods first (at least for me personally) gives the foundation, knowledge and experience to ensure clarity later on when you go your own way and do what works for you. Believe me, I have chafed against 'the rules' of tarot tradition for a long time, and only now feel like my understanding is such that I can make significant changes to how I read. (LOL success or otherwise of doing this is still to be seen!).

If you are moving the cards where ever you feel they fit in order to get clarity, this is more likely to be using your cards as a tool for psychic abilities rather than reading tarot cards. Neither right, nor wrong, just different. Even though there is a tradition that can be followed while learning, no two people will ever read the cards the same way anyway. And if the reading is relevant to the sitters problem/question, then its just semantics and really dosn't matter to most people. It certainly dosn't bother me how people read, but be aware that some tarot scholars strongly disagree with anything but a traditional approach.

I enjoy the conversation type readings that Chiriku mentioned, but personally, I don't think I could read for myself or people I know if I moved the cards around. That could totally change the meaning of a reading based on what I knew about the situation, or what I wanted/thought subconsciously. I believe the power of the subconscious is incredibly strong so even though I wouldn't consciously 'cheat' to get a reading I preferred, I would always doubt the reading anyway. That might not be true for anybody else though

I can only speak for myself, but drawing three cards as ” the answer” doesn't work for me, I'm still too new I guess. What does work is for me to pull one card as ” the answer” ( I draw from the top), while knowing in my head that I may continue to draw cards from the top to expand that answer, or to see what is further down the road. I usually draw until they stop making sense to ME, but the first card drawn is the most important one and is the answer. I just got into a lazy habit of doing one card readings, and I found them to be very accurate so I kept with them. I am now introducing the shadow card into my one card readings as ” what is hidden/unseen”. Otherwise I do three card readings with positions, and sometimes a CC, or other spread.

shells said:

I'm an artist and photographer, so I equate it to knowing the rules so you know when and how to break them to be effective. I am also one for being different, not reading instructions and doing things my way etc, but in regards to tarot, my feeling is that learning/using traditional methods first (at least for me personally) gives the foundation, knowledge and experience to ensure clarity later on when you go your own way and do what works for you.

If you are moving the cards where ever you feel they fit in order to get clarity, this is more likely to be using your cards as a tool for psychic abilities rather than reading tarot cards. Neither right, nor wrong, just different.

I enjoy the conversation type readings that Chiriku mentioned, but personally, I don't think I could read for myself or people I know if I moved the cards around.

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I as well have an occupation which requires following the rules, and I also agree with having more structure when starting out. However, one must also ask questions to gain knowledge from others.

You have mentioned twice that moving the cards around consitute using 'psychic' powers. I am intersted to know what your definition is in regards to this notion- when practicing tarot are we not tapping spiritual energy to find out a potential future? Would this not be considered psychic in some sense?

As for the conversational approach I do not think there is any moving of cards as Chiriku stated you ask a question and put a card down for an answer.

I feel that there is no such thing as a truly position-less spread.

Just because the reader chose not to use a spread, doesn't mean the cards went along with it. When a person does a 3-card throw with no positions assigned, the cards will still come out in a particular order, one determined by the same forces that decided which particular cards should appear.

Everything that happens in life is action. There is alway a beginning, middle and end. There is always foundation, action, result. There is progression through factors and events. And the tarot takes this into account even if the reader isn't thinking about it.

The last card that comes up is, in some sense, more or less, going to be the outcome. It will be a reflection of how things will turn out, how factors sum up, or an indicator of what you need to know, depending on what you asked.

A string of cards is like a string of words in a sentence. They are arranged in a certain order because that is how the speaker (or tarot) needed to arrange them to give the intended message. I see no purpose in rearranging the cards for "clarity." It's like rearranging the words that a person spoke if you weren't clear on what they meant.