Suggested meanings for non-illustrated pips

errr... thanks, Rusty Neon... now I'm going to have to complete those lists I made over a year and a bit ago ...

I should also mention, as I do in other threads contemporary with this one, that I personally tend to use or link Swords with Fire, not Air. In the list I made above, I linked to keywords of thinking/Air to the suit of Swords for the sake of consistency with Lee's post, and remember at the time contemplating whether this would be in the best interest. For the sake of the principal aspects of this thread, I thought it would, showing that the 'keywords', as applied to a suit, may be quite well elementally connected.

So to continue a little project abandoned in 2002... (remember that the first words are from Lee's list, not mine)

Coins:

• 2 - Instability - balance or balancing various incomes or physical tasks or physical health;
• 3 - First results - talking about or movement in one's living space or income or work;
• 4 - Manifestation - stability on the homefront or employment;
• 5 - Lack - challenges in making ends meet or in one's physical environment;
• 6 - Unearned bounty - harmonious home;
• 7 - Patience - grace or guidance/assistance given in the establishment of work or home;
• 8 - Steady effort - abundance in physical energy, finances, sex, or working life;
• 9 - Earned bounty - misguided sense of one's own position with regards to how much is at one's disposal;
• 10 - Lasting manifestation - fullness of satisfaction as to what one has...

These, of course, as key-words, take on so many shades in actual readings, that they may become unrecognisable

Hi jmd,

Could I ask specifically about your attribution of the concept of 'illusion' to the number 9?

I am struggling to come to some understanding of numerology and for the moment am working on ideas of:
- the significance of the triple ternary..... synthesis and integration of the three spheres [phsical, intellectual, spiritual]
- the reflective qualities of the Hermit and illusory qualities of the Moon

Your guidance would be greatly appreciated.....

Difficult question, Aoife, for it is certainly not a result of considerations of 9 as the triple ternary.

I suppose that, for me, it initially arose out of Kabalistic considerations. The Sefer Yetzirah states right in its opening paragraph 'ten and not nine, ten and not eleven'. This has often been explained as a reaction to Greek numeralogical considerations, in which it is claimed that nine is considered 'completion'. Kabalistically, there is a sense that nine may therefore be viewed as the illusion of this completion.

Again Kabalistically, the ninth Sefirah is Yesod (foundation), which is often linked to both the sphere of the Moon and to the sexual organs - each in some ways having or leading to illusory impulses - and subconscious instincts.

In addition, in the 'classic' version of the Celtic Cross, the ninth card (the one just below the outcome card) may indicate either hopes or fears - ie, not what is actually there, but may lead to an illusory understanding of the situation.

As a third reflection (I may also later also post some aspects related to geometry), 'nine' in French has an ambiguous sound which also makes it sound like 'new' (in French, 'neuf' means both 'nine' and 'new', depending on context, as our 'bank' similarly has ambiguous yet clear meaning). The 'neuf' also seems to, again by the homophony of the 'language of the birds', sound like 'un oeuf' - 'an egg'. The number thus seems to be at the end of the single numbers, yet be 'new', or even unborn (egg)... seemingly a 'one'. Hence, again, an illusory aspect results.

So here we have three 'reasons', none of which are necessarily that useful, but have certainly impacted on my own reflections. The first of these reasons has Kabalistic considerations, the second a popular spread's standardised positional meanings, and the third somewhat questionable linguistic reflections...

...flimsy at best.

Yet, after the abundance of the cubic and three dimensionality of the preceding number (eight is the first cube), a reversal to a flat square seems a step backwards.

It also permits, however and finally, the first drawing of a 'grid' (naughts and crosses type), and thus the first magic square - each of whose lines add to fifteen, the number of the Devil, and possibly delusion.
As I said, once these reflections are made, other geometrical considerations may also be seen in that light (of the illusory), but these already require a view of nine as illusory.

For example, if one considers the standard representation of the tetractys:
and remove any one of those, the ten suddenly becomes incomplete... an incompleteness which yet assumes, somehow, an end...

But enough for now.

Hope this answers in some ways my own peculiar ways of viewing this number

jmd, your post is absolutely marvellous - thank you very much indeed for sharing!

It is so helpful to be taken through thoughts, ideas, feelings, which have brought you to your particular frame of reference (sorry, that's a poor term but the best I can call to mind). And clearly this has been a process evolving for you over many years.... and I should imagine, continues to evolve.

Perhaps most helpfully for me, it gives me 'permission' and the confidence to draw in my own particular perceptions or experiences..... that they too have a value in this process.

Your reflection on "the homophony of 'the language of the birds'" is intriguing...... and reminds me that if I am to understand the Marseille, some facility with its mother-tongue would be a distinct advantage, if not a necessity.

jmd, my sincere thanks....

Thank you, Rusty Neon for the bump-up and thank you jmd for your insights. This is exactly what I was looking for when I originally did a search on the topic. Somehow, I don't remember seeing this post.

Sorry to quiz JMD-Swords as Fire

This is an attribution I've run across more than a few times and in the decks themselves--well, Brian Williams Renaissance Tarot--it worked out.

I'll check aecletic.net to see if there are other posts on this.

I did check the net and came up with decks that I don't use with that attribution. But since JMD reads with a Swiss or French Marseilles, I was hopeful to perhaps see another way of reading and associate it with the French or Swiss decks that I have...might be a fun alternative.

Best,

Mari H.

Lee said:

Hi, everyone --

I've always been somewhat dissatisfied with all interpretive schemes for assigning meanings to the Minor Arcana. They've always seemed a little arbitrary to me, with several types of life experiences left out. For instance, Cups are supposed to be emotions, but why are so many emotions missing from the cards?
-- Lee

Click to expand...

Great keyword list Lee. I agree, cups (hearts?) are incomplete in terms of emotions. Many 'emotions' have been associated with the other suits. For example, swords (spades?), so called intellectual (if one associate them with air) but corresponding with anger, discord, war and grief. The emotional, intellectual distinction just doesn't 'cut' it.

I tend to be very syncretic in my approach to tarot, including qabalistic, numerological, iconographic, astrological, mythological associations that the tarot has assmilated over time as a dynamic symbolic system. That they may not have been a part of the tarot as it was originally concieved is irrelevant in this respect. Most evidence points to it being conceived as just a game. So if a client comes for a reading, am I therefore supposed to shuffle, ask them to cut, proclaim aces high or low, deal and play a game of trumps?

When considering the symbolism of non-pictorial pips I do consider elemental, colour and numerological meanings, and relationships between the cards in the pattern of the spread. My understanding of the meaning of the card is also based upon a sefirotic/parzum and an astrological reference, to decans and to cups/venus, swords/mars, wands/lights, disks/mercury, courts/jupiter and major atu/saturn(alia).

Kwaw

Re: Re: Suggested meanings for non-illustrated pips

kwaw said:

I tend to be very syncretic in my approach to tarot, including qabalistic, numerological, iconographic, astrological, mythological associations that the tarot has assmilated over time as a dynamic symbolic system. Kwaw

Click to expand...

That being said, while I have accumulated all these associations which inform the meanings I derive from the cards, it is hard to say how I derived meanings at the beginning of my card reading attempts. I was seven when my mother had a tarot reader at our home, and I remember standing next to her as her cards were read intrigued by the reading of a 'story' from the pages of cards on the table. The very next day I was telling 'stories' for my friends at school using an ordinary pack of playing cards. From what associations at seven did I derive meanings for individual playing cards? It was so long ago I can't remember the associations I made or on what basis I made them, but even at the age of seven one is impacted by cultural associations and I presume whatever associations I made were not purely 'imaginative' or random; but were informed perhaps by the childhood educational method of teaching number, through nursery rhymes and playground number games?

Kwaw

lee,

my own approach would be sort of what you have done (not refering to the titles but to the approach of making up your own titles ) yet it think the virgo in me would first have to examine all the qabalistic, astrological, elemental, and then colour, symbolism before i could myself start to make up my own titles.
with that being said i added to what was done by crowley , spiritual strife, and social valour for the aeclectic project two.

as you have suggested meanings for non illustrated pips , would these be purely non illustrated pips with no sacred geometry, colour symbolism, just the numbers of cups with title underneath?

or would you elborate like old mrs frieda and the gill tarot minors to make half illustrated pips.

and for these minors how would you change the major arcana to reflect the updates for since you are updating the minors to be more modern i would think that you would do the same for the majors and that may go into a new thread for your response but i am interested for you have done lots of reviews and know lots about tarot , so i think this would be one of your first steps to the lee simple tarot ?

Re: lee,

HOLMES said:

as you have suggested meanings for non illustrated pips , would these be purely non illustrated pips with no sacred geometry, colour symbolism, just the numbers of cups with title underneath?

or would you elborate like old mrs frieda and the gill tarot minors to make half illustrated pips.

and for these minors how would you change the major arcana to reflect the updates for since you are updating the minors to be more modern i would think that you would do the same for the majors and that may go into a new thread for your response but i am interested for you have done lots of reviews and know lots about tarot , so i think this would be one of your first steps to the lee simple tarot ?

Click to expand...

The idea of creating a deck to embody these keywords is an excellent one, but actually all I had in mind was to use these keywords to read with existing non-scenic-pip decks, without regard to geometry or color or elements or numerology.

The Lee Simple Tarot will thus have to wait awhile before being birthed into the world, if ever.

Also, although I will happily take credit for writing lots of reviews, I must disagree with the notion that I know lots about tarot.

-- Lee