Golden Dawn Tree vs. Crowley's?

Richard

Rather than tradition, I'm thinking more of the elegance of having the natural order of the simple letters line up precisely with the natural order of the zodiac.
ETA. New attachment.
 

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Ross G Caldwell

It could also tie in with Crowley's unique understanding of Dispensationalism. To Crowley Thelema was a new dispensation. The "next step" in the unveiling of the divine. As the prophet of that dispensation he might have reasonably thought he had the necessary authority to make such changes. The usual argument against the switch is 'tradition'. But tradition seems to have been of little or no importance to Crowley at times.

Of course, I think you're right. Crowley considered himself a Secret Chief - as are all 8=3s. But I don't think he considered his own - AC-as-manifested-on-this-plane - authority to be enough to declare such a momentous change. It had to be "authorized" - and judging by his accounts of visions of secret gatherings hundreds and thousands of years ago, where he was present in a different incarnation, this authorization took the form of an agreement that the change would be made, in accordance with the Precession of Equinoxes/Aeons, and revealed at the proper time, when the Equinox had actually precessed (or was close enough) into the next sign.

The Cipher Manuscript switch was the "first shoe to drop", and with AL I:57, its riddle and solution, Crowley as Prophet of the New Aeon (Age of Aquarius) dropped the second shoe, with its Zodiacal elegance proving that that same hand behind the first was also behind the second - namely, the Secret Chiefs, who had planned it all along.

About the tradition, the Secret Chiefs CREATE the tradition, and can change it. But there is still, in Crowley's view as I understand it, the notion that such changes are made in a council, and respond only to natural needs and real events, like precession. They can't be made willy-nilly by any old master who decides to mess with the tradition. He viewed the tradition as a science, an accurate description of reality, not a palette of paints with which to design any universe one fancied. This is the heart of the criticism he made toward Achad's re-attribution of the paths on the Tree of Life, and therefore his ultimate rejection of Achad's claim to true Mastership.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Rather than tradition, I'm thinking more of the elegance of having the natural order of the simple letters line up precisely with the natural order of the zodiac.
ETA. New attachment.

Right, the SY doesn't attribute cards to the letters, so changing the card attributions, as the Cipher Manuscript did, doesn't affect the straighforward elegance of Zodiacal order and simple Hebrew letters.

Crowley clearly didn't feel bound by the SY's attributions, that's all.

In other words, Heh is not identical to Aries for him. "Aries", "Emperor" etc. are descriptions of the power of the path mediating Chokhmah and Tiphereth, Heh. With the change of Aeons or Precession of Equinoxes, that power is now changed to Aquarius, depicted by the Star. The cards are depictions of that power, so when the sign changes, the card changes, or vice versa.

Obviously not everybody accepts, or even understands, Crowley on this point. But, as far as I can tell, we are discussing Crowley's switch compared to the GD switch, not whether or to what extent either was "correct" with regards to some tradition claiming prior authority.
 

Aeon418

Crowley considered himself a Secret Chief - as are all 8=3s.
In the P.P.S. that ends letter 9 in Magick Without Tears, Crowley states that a visitor's story reminded him that he may be a Secret Chief without knowing it himself. To the best of my knowledge that's the nearest Crowley ever came to saying that he was one, at least on some level other than the conscious.

I'm not convinced that the attainment of 8=3 or even the required 9=2 (see letter 9 again) means that one automatically becomes a Secret Chief ipso facto. Although the attainment of such grades may mean that one is a suitable vehicle if need arises.
 

Aeon418

Crowley clearly didn't feel bound by the SY's attributions, that's all.
This is supported by Crowley's commentary on column XIII - 777. The Paths of the Sepher Yetzirah.
Aleister Crowley said:
These attributions arise from the description of the paths in the Sepher Yetzirah. This is one of the most ancient books of the Qabalah; but it is far from clear how the ideas correspond with the general sceme of symbolism. They seem of no use in practical magical work. It is doubtful whether the text of the book is accurate, or whether (in any case) the rabbin responsible for the text had any sufficient authority.
 

Aeon418

On second thoughts is Crowley talking about the 32 Paths of Wisdom that got tacked onto certain editions of the SY?
 

Ross G Caldwell

In the P.P.S. that ends letter 9 in Magick Without Tears, Crowley states that a visitor's story reminded him that he may be a Secret Chief without knowing it himself. To the best of my knowledge that's the nearest Crowley ever came to saying that he was one, at least on some level other than the conscious.

That's the passage I was thinking of too, of course ;)

But I think that this was his natural reticence to say so, an oblique way of saying so. They are supposed to be "secret" after all, so what is the use of openly claiming to be one? You are only inviting ridicule, and there is no way to prove it to a skeptic, so just keep them guessing, you'll know it when you see it, a brother knows a brother, kind of thing. A wink.

I'm not convinced that the attainment of 8=3 or even the required 9=2 (see letter 9 again) means that one automatically becomes a Secret Chief ipso facto. Although the attainment of such grades may mean that one is a suitable vehicle if need arises.

I suppose that the imprimatur of various official books show that the Inner (Supernal) College - which is what the Secret Chiefs are supposed to be - is comprised of V.V.V.V.V. and To Mega Therion (and 10=1, "93", which I take to be Aiwaz as Crowley's Ipsissimus identification with his HGA), suggests to me that he knew full well that he was the voice and vehicle of the Secret Chiefs, although he would never say that "Aleister Crowley is VVVVV and Mega Therion and Aiwaz"... he is THEIR vehicle, they are not HIS vehicle.

I think that when discussing the Supernal grades, they should be considered to be one thing, in different modes. 8=3 is the mode of silence, 9=2 is speech, and 10=1 is beyond both, essentially hidden and ineffable, but always present. Crowley's own painful and long drawn-out attainment of 8=3 shows that it is a matter of continuous revelation, rather than immediate and visible change or sudden attainment. The "attainment" of the grade (marked by things like an oath and taking a name) is the acceptance of what is already there, rather than being given something new (since we are always complete "Trees" in any case; initiation only makes it more and more visible. You don't gain a new sephira, you only "activate it", or, more accurately, make the part "below the Abyss" conscious of it). The only new thing to be gained from accepting or attaining the grade is to be able to stand in place and see the next horizon, what remains to be accomplished.
 

Aeon418

But I think that this was his natural reticence to say so, an oblique way of saying so. They are supposed to be "secret" after all, so what is the use of openly claiming to be one? You are only inviting ridicule, and there is no way to prove it to a skeptic, so just keep them guessing, you'll know it when you see it, a brother knows a brother, kind of thing. A wink.
Nudge, nudge. ;) ;) Say no more. :laugh:
I suppose that the imprimatur of various official books show that the Inner (Supernal) College - which is what the Secret Chiefs are supposed to be - is comprised of V.V.V.V.V. and O.M. (and 10=1, "93", which I take to be Aiwaz as Crowley's Ipsissimus identification with his HGA), suggests to me that he knew full well that he was the voice and vehicle of the Secret Chiefs, although he would never say that "Aleister Crowley is VVVVV and Ou Mh and Aiwaz"... he is THEIR vehicle, they are not HIS vehicle.
Agreed. But I'm not altogether clear why you have included Crowley's 7=4 motto, O.M. :confused: Surely TO MEGA THERION 9=2 completes the triad.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Nudge, nudge. ;) ;) Say no more. :laugh:

Agreed. But I'm not altogether clear why you have included Crowley's 7=4 motto, O.M. :confused: Surely TO MEGA THERION 9=2 completes the triad.

Right - a mistake (a Freudian slip? I can't imagine why... maybe some recent discussions elsewhere about 7=4 stuck it in my mind)

I'll correct it.
 

Zephyros

You fellows are far more learned than I, and cause my poor head to spin and feel like a country bumpkin. Would it be viable to consider both in tandem? I can see value in both configurations, although with difficulty. I suppose the problem is created only in the transition from the abstract to the practical, namely, Tarot.

In any case, say the Emperor and Aries are on the path from Netzach to Yesod, what does it mean, having two very male influences? It seems imbalanced. Heh as the Star and Zayin as the Lovers I can resolve, especially if Nuit is "divided for Love's sake." Well, not only resolve, it seems beautiful on a visceral level.

On the other hand, if the Emperor is Heh, I can see how the male intent of Chochma goes down to Tiphareth and the female takes that essence and divides it into Creation. In that capacity, the Star and the Sun, as the manifested lights make sense as "birthing" Yesod. Although, as Aeon said in the other thread, this paints quite a disheartening picture