Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

ivanna said:

I think my english is not so good to note the nuances between advice and counselling....
And yes, I also think is something magical out there...
I received magikal and awsome readings from folks here knowing nothing from me...where does this come? Ah ah, magick, yep, I believe in magick. Live is much more funny with some magick. But there weren't predictive readings at all.... but so accurate that made me cry.

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Well, magic is not science ... as we understand science today. The scientific method works on the level of the material world or forces that can be seen to effect the material world. If a scientific principle or method is considered true, I can demonstrate it to you, I can set up, say, a chemical experiment, and if I do it right, I can be pretty sure that 100% of the time I will get the same results every time I do the experiment.

Magic and related subjects ( like divination) are much harder to predict the results of an 'experiment', only possible results can be predicted ... sometimes the simplest magic seems to work wonders and other times, no matter what you do - bupkis !

Thats just the way it is.

There is a WHOLE lot more to it than that ... but people dont see it that way. Magic and related subjects and related 'mind-set' is an advanced and complex subject actually, to even come close to understanding what is happening, one might have to enter quiet deep into it, study related subjects and glean some understanding of the make up of the mind, pre- 1600 / Cartesian Dualism.

Otherwise we approach this ancient subject with a modern split dualistic mind , and they way that works is, many of us either outright deny or accept 'magic' ... if we do accept it, we try to comprehend it with that dualistic mind, which throws up the very questions and frustrations that are being revealed here.

I see it as one of the results of the shallow New Age 'understandings' ( and marketing and 'dumbing down' ) of the subject.

[ETA ; as displayed in many modern publications on the subject ]

Simply ; magic is not science, nor can it be proved or demonstrated the same way.

Its 'powers' lie in a 'third realm' between and interpenetrating the other two of the 'real' and the 'ideal' .

Third realm: http://dreamflesh.com/interviews/patrick-harpur/

Nikita_ said:

Yes, hard to accept when we come from the idea of Magic and supernatural powers, but I guess that's all it is, if we want to be honest...and I guess it is still a bit magical, anyway...even though not in the way we thought....

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For me Tarot definitely is something magical. And my personal belief that Tarot can't reliably predict the future, that there is no such thing as divination and that the magic is actually all in my head doesn't make it any less magical.

ravenest said:

Well, magic is not science ... as we understand science today.

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With my very personal definition of magic this makes sense to me too. As long as I think about how things work and interact, about the structure of reality and stuff my brain works quite dualistic and devoted to scientific logic. But as soon as I pull out a tarot deck a different part of my brain takes over immediately and my thinking becomes "magical".

When you drive your car - do you think all the time about how the cylinders and pistons work and so on ? If you DID, you'd likely crash from not paying attention. The car drives fine; the cards work as they work. Each of us probably sees a different kind of result from them. But there is danger in overthinking.

Does magical thinking guarantee an ability to foretell the future? No. Are there skills and techniques to magic that can be learned and thus improve one's abilities? Definitely. Can careful observation of the natural world and one's inner senses play a role in magic and its development? Yes.

“Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will.”
--Aleister Crowely

“Magic was considered a divine science which led to a participation in the attributes of Divinity itself. ‘ It unveils the operations of nature, and leads to the contemplation of celestial powers.’” Philo Judaeus, “De Specialibus Legibus” in [Blavatsky, Isis Unveiled, I:25]

Kenneth Mackenzie: “Magic is a psychological branch of science, dealing with the sympathetic effects of stones, drugs, herbs and living substances upon the imaginative and reflective faculties.” --in Francis King, 1987, p. 33

MacGregor Mathers: Magic is “the science of the control of the secret forces of nature.”

"Magick investigates the laws of Nature with the idea of making use of them.
It only differs from 'profane' science by always keeping ahead of it. As
Fraser has shown, Magick is science in the tentative stage; but it may be,
and often is, more than this. It is science which, for one reason or
another, cannot be declared to the profane."
--Crowley, Magick without Tears--The Three Schools of Magick (1)]

If you want to be a race car driver (or shall I say a 'great race car driver') you don't just get a faster car and press on the gas as hard as possible. No, you first analyze what you are doing, and you do think about pistons and turn ratios and lots of things I don't even know about. You develop a level of knowledge and precision that is totally unnecessary when going to the store for milk. I'd trust an experienced race car driver's 'educated intuition' and abilities over mine any day of the week if I needed great speed and precision.

Driving to town the other day on 'automatic' ( you know ; all of a sudden you are 'somewhere else' , with no awareness of what was in between, although 'you' negotiated the driving, the curves, the cars coming the other way, etc ... well, I HOPE you know ) and ...

What's that noise ! ? ... sounds like a slightly un-synchronized firing of the pistons, that cant happen unless ... ... hmmm ... and .... and ... and = ! I better replace the timing belt, its probably overdue (if that slips or breaks - goodbye engine! ). ... and I am not even good at that ... Savvas Volvo expert drove mine through Alexandria (industrial busy streets) : Me; " Two mechanics at home think I am nuts, but , cant you hear that subtle weird noise coming from the gearbox? The gear box specialist said he could hear it and I need to buy a new gearbox."

Savass; "Be quiet! " <leaning forward listening ... fingers on dash board feeling > ... "No, I think it is your rear drive shaft housing." Back at the shop he jacks up the back and runs the car in drive and goes over it with a wooden broom handle as a stethoscope ;

"Lucky for you, it IS the housing , thats cheap to fix."

Another time, a car flubbers past the letter box while I checking the mail. I stop him. "Hey mate, do realise you are driving on a totally flat rear tyre?"

" Huh ? " <looks> "Oh ! ... Geeze, how did that happen?'

Different strokes for different folks

The type of overthinking drivers I worry about are those that ; 'Okay , now I am in 2nd gear ... release the clutch, OH ! ... where did that car from! Now the brake peddle is .... '

Teheuti said:

Does magical thinking guarantee an ability to foretell the future? No. Are there skills and techniques to magic that can be learned and thus improve one's abilities? Definitely. Can careful observation of the natural world and one's inner senses play a role in magic and its development? Yes.

“Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will.”
--Aleister Crowely

“Magic was considered a divine science which led to a participation in the attributes of Divinity itself. ‘ It unveils the operations of nature, and leads to the contemplation of celestial powers.’” Philo Judaeus, “De Specialibus Legibus” in [Blavatsky, Isis Unveiled, I:25]

Kenneth Mackenzie: “Magic is a psychological branch of science, dealing with the sympathetic effects of stones, drugs, herbs and living substances upon the imaginative and reflective faculties.” --in Francis King, 1987, p. 33

MacGregor Mathers: Magic is “the science of the control of the secret forces of nature.”

"Magick investigates the laws of Nature with the idea of making use of them.
It only differs from 'profane' science by always keeping ahead of it. As
Fraser has shown, Magick is science in the tentative stage; but it may be,
and often is, more than this. It is science which, for one reason or
another, cannot be declared to the profane."
--Crowley, Magick without Tears--The Three Schools of Magick (1)]

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Here is an interesting addendum:

I was watching a doco on placebos, they were doing scientific tests and the results were as usual, placebos work nearly as good as 'the real stuff' ... in some cases.

But then one smart researcher goes "What if we run the same tests but this time we tell the people that have been given the placebos that they are placebos?"

Many of them worked, even one woman felt they worked so well at the end of the trial her problem came back and went back to them asking for more placebos, they told her they were fake and she said "I know ! But I was getting relief from them! "

Okay ... that may well be 'magic' 'all inside the head'.

But the problem I have here (again - dualism! ) ... I feel it ISNT all inside the head ... that IS where the brain is ... but ... is it the brain / head ? Is not the more common or better term "all in the mind' ... and elsewhere, I would argue strongly that the 'mind' is not all 'inside the head' nor generated solely from the brain (and not just from a Platonic perspective either) . .

Let's try this placebo experiment and take it 'outside the head'; we get people to test electronic bug repellents in a lab, some of them are fake and do not work, but we dont tell anybody that. Then we tabulate the results. If they are interesting then we can go to the next stage, test them and tell the people who have fake ones.

But I cant think of a scientific lab that would fund such a 'crazy' experiment?

ravenest said:

Here is an interesting addendum:

I was watching a doco on placebos, they were doing scientific tests and the results were as usual, placebos work nearly as good as 'the real stuff' ... in some cases.

But then one smart researcher goes "What if we run the same tests but this time we tell the people that have been given the placebos that they are placebos?"

Many of them worked, even one woman felt they worked so well at the end of the trial her problem came back and went back to them asking for more placebos, they told her they were fake and she said "I know ! But I was getting relief from them! "

Okay ... that may well be 'magic' 'all inside the head'.

But the problem I have here (again - dualism! ) ... I feel it ISNT all inside the head ... that IS where the brain is ... but ... is it the brain / head ? Is not the more common or better term "all in the mind' ... and elsewhere, I would argue strongly that the 'mind' is not all 'inside the head' nor generated solely from the brain (and not just from a Platonic perspective either) . .

Let's try this placebo experiment and take it 'outside the head'; we get people to test electronic bug repellents in a lab, some of them are fake and do not work, but we dont tell anybody that. Then we tabulate the results. If they are interesting then we can go to the next stage, test them and tell the people who have fake ones.

But I cant think of a scientific lab that would fund such a 'crazy' experiment?

Click to expand...

And exactly how should they test them?! [emoji33]

However, what you describe comes close to a phenomenon called priming. There was an experiment: They had scientists test the intelligence of two groups of mice. In some of the cases the scientists were told one of the group had the smarter rodent-members.

In these cases the groups which were said to be more clever achieved the better results. This had a lot to do with our perception...

This had some relevance for our topic I think but it's not what you want to point out, is it?

Teheuti said:

If you want to be a race car driver (or shall I say a 'great race car driver') you don't just get a faster car and press on the gas as hard as possible. No, you first analyze what you are doing, and you do think about pistons and turn ratios and lots of things I don't even know about. You develop a level of knowledge and precision that is totally unnecessary when going to the store for milk. I'd trust an experienced race car driver's 'educated intuition' and abilities over mine any day of the week if I needed great speed and precision.

Click to expand...

About precision, and " educated inuition ", I can relate an experience I had with a psychic a few years ago-and it was by no means the only one along those lines. It was a time of great changes in my life; a project I had started had not given results that I judged satisfactory, so I was planning a few alterntive moves, or plan B, which involved changes in different areas of my life-a move to a different city, a change in my carreer, personal life, and so on. One day, I went to visit an exoteric fair and I decided to try this psychic, one of the many who were there. The way she described my presumed future mirrored EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, in every detail, what I was planning. The precision with which she described what kind of town I was going to move to, what kind of job I was going to have, the kind of man I was going to date...it was incredible, I was stunned. It took my breath away. But even then, I thought : isn't it weird, though...it would be a first, if EVERYTHING, absolutely everything, happened in precisely the way I've imagined....too good to be true....
And in fact, none of that actually materialized....still, I suppose IT WAS magical and amazing her ability to read my mind....no doubt about that....but what good are a driver's " ability, speed, precision, and educated intuition " if it doesn't really lead you where you want to go ? If all it does is understand where you want to go, mirror your intentions, and possibly mislead you as a result ? Of course we are filled with awe when we are faced with someone who, through tarot, or by holding our granny's watch-I've had that as well-or simply by staring at us, is able to see all sorts of things about our lives, our wishes, and so on....BUT SO WHAT ???? We knew that already, without their inuition !!! Do you see what I mean ????

ravenest said:

Let's try this placebo experiment and take it 'outside the head'; we get people to test electronic bug repellents in a lab, some of them are fake and do not work, but we dont tell anybody that. Then we tabulate the results. If they are interesting then we can go to the next stage, test them and tell the people who have fake ones.

But I cant think of a scientific lab that would fund such a 'crazy' experiment?

Click to expand...

Speaking of bugs, when camping I used to have a terrible time with mosquitos until I started talking to them. I couldn't get them to give up on me entirely, but I found over many years that if I talk to them & willingly accept their bites the first night that they leave me alone from that point on. I don't know if this involves some kind of chemical reaction but it has worked for me ever since, without fail. (Other people around me would get bitten night after night.) Sure, things work that probably can't be studied scientifically, but I don't know if this particular arrangement can work for everyone.