Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

Teheuti said:

Some of you might find this review of E.O. Wilson's latest book, The Meaning of Human Existence, to be relevant to our discussion: http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/11/04/e-o-wilson-the-meaning-of-human-existence/

To me he seems to be saying that from a scientific perspective in which we consider that no higher being has set one's destiny:

"There is no advance design, but instead overlapping networks of physical cause and effect. The unfolding of history is obedient only to the general [scientific] laws of the Universe. Each event is random yet alters the probability of later events. During organic evolution, for example, the origin of one adaptation by natural selection makes the origin of certain other adaptations more likely." [my italics]

and
"Premier among the consequences is the capacity to imagine possible futures, and to plan and choose among them. How wisely we use this uniquely human ability depends on the accuracy of our self-understanding."

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That's a fascinating passage.
It reminds me of the idea of karma (not the one that causes rebirth - I do more believe in thec ause-and-effect-type of karma)in some way.

And in considering our options and influences with the Tarot we can explore our own karma and thus arrive at some way of predicting the future. Not as fate but as consequences of our own actions.
(God, I hope this makes sense to someone...)

closrapexa said:

I think this is actually relevant to the discussion, since Tarot is actually a human construct. Why would you say the passage is an example of arrogance? In terms of this planet, humans are special. Animals do have the ability to plan, of course, pack hunting being just an example, but still that doesn't compare with the human ability to do so, as well as record our findings and learn as a race, which allows us to plan even further and see more possible ends. That's how we got to space, an achievement unequalled by any other species on this planet.

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Tarot itself may be a human construct, but the idea of "divination" as a whole, who knows what inspired it. As far as I know, nobody alive today has any definitive proof of how/where/why divination first spawned in human imagination, so who is to say "we" invented it?

Humans have the tendency to make very broad assumptions on things simply because they cannot observe anything to the contrary. We can only assume what animals do or do not think and feel based off of our observations of them, which may or may not be true. Until my dog confirms she cannot fathom the future or choose, I will take it as merely a somewhat educated guess. To make the bold statement that humans are "unique" in their ability to imagine possible futures and choose among them implies knowledge, not assumption. That is an arrogant assumption to make, which might be the only truly "unique" attribute humans have. Perhaps that's just an assumption...

My statement of course has nothing to do with the other things humans have accomplished that other species have not, such as the space travel you referenced. Of course humans have made advancements in things other species cannot. This does not in any way mean humans KNOW everything they claim to know, and the bold statements made, no matter how educated one might be, are derived from arrogance.

EyeAmEye said:

Human arrogance at its finest once again. We are so very, very special, aren't we?

Sorry for the sidebar...let the conversation continue.

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You havent noticed that ???? Maybe replace special with unique ... if I am wrong, please point out another animal that does this.

EyeAmEye said:

Tarot itself may be a human construct, but the idea of "divination" as a whole, who knows what inspired it. As far as I know, nobody alive today has any definitive proof of how/where/why divination first spawned in human imagination, so who is to say "we" invented it?

Humans have the tendency to make very broad assumptions on things simply because they cannot observe anything to the contrary. We can only assume what animals do or do not think and feel based off of our observations of them, which may or may not be true. Until my dog confirms she cannot fathom the future or choose, I will take it as merely a somewhat educated guess. To make the bold statement that humans are "unique" in their ability to imagine possible futures and choose among them implies knowledge, not assumption. That is an arrogant assumption to make, which might be the only truly "unique" attribute humans have. Perhaps that's just an assumption...

My statement of course has nothing to do with the other things humans have accomplished that other species have not, such as the space travel you referenced. Of course humans have made advancements in things other species cannot. This does not in any way mean humans KNOW everything they claim to know, and the bold statements made, no matter how educated one might be, are derived from arrogance.

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From an anthropological viewpoint, the only mistake Tehuti made was not 'earthing' her statement; technically she should have added 'demonstrated proof' ... and the demonstrated proof ( that is aside from speculations you make about what animals think- which is highly speculative by the way ! ) is humans development of formative tool technology, everything from a stone knife through to a space ship, IS a refelction of that principle Tehuti outlined.

So we actually have tangible proof that humans think this way ... we speculate that animals and pets do ... because of our emotional attachment to them makes us mistakenly believe that 'they are people too' ... I love animals and pets myself ... but they aint people (as any animal trainer will tell you).

ravenest said:

You havent noticed that ???? Maybe replace special with unique ... if I am wrong, please point out another animal that does this.

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To get us back on topic and away from mudslinging - how could we POSSIBLY know ? It would not surprise me at all to find out that dolphins did this - or even cats. We have no way to tell. And trying to base a discussion on whether we are special is a bit silly, isn't it ? We can only know what WE can know, and we can only discuss this on that basis. Leave other species out of it. Wilson speaks of humans. We are humans. Can we carry on from there ?

gregory said:

To get us back on topic and away from mudslinging - how could we POSSIBLY know ? It would not surprise me at all to find out that dolphins did this - or even cats. We have no way to tell. And trying to base a discussion on whether we are special is a bit silly, isn't it ? We can only know what WE can know, and we can only discuss this on that basis. Leave other species out of it. Wilson speaks of humans. We are humans. Can we carry on from there ?

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WE can, but we cant deny Human tool technology and that we ARE differnt from the other animals.

I mean ... THAT is not going to be disputed is it !

This is our crucial human function ! THis is at the heart of the idea of knowing what the future DOES hold ... or, more correctly COULD hold ... and hence, the whole issue behind this discussion.

A 'tool' like a Swiss Army knife is the perfect example ... what if this happens ? How do I cope with that? Can I make the can opener have multiple uses in case certain things happen ? This or that can happen, my tool should be able to deal with different outcomes.

Isnt this exactly the issue at the heart of this subject ?

In any case IMO, that is how tarot works for me ... a rather amazing index of the potentials of my 'Psychic Swiss Army Knife' .... It is my magical weapon (or tool) of earth - my pentacle.

Well, animals do have varying degrees of what we would call sentience. Chimps use rudimentary tools, elephants mourn their dead, to say nothing of the close bonds specially domesticated animals share with humans. Horses, dogs and cats are probably humans' closest "friends" in the animal kingdom.

Still, all those things still do not negate humanity's mental superiority. In fact it is our main evolutionary advantage, and is the product of millions of years of natural selection. Our brain evolved because the smartest among up, those who devised intelligent ways of surviving were actually those who survived. I would say that superiority isn't something to be taken for granted, including the ability to devise spiritual concepts and divination tools such as Tarot.

This idea is even dealt with in Genesis. Adam and Eve take up some of the snake's animal tendencies such as desire, but the difference between them is very well emphasized. Not that I'm saying the Bible is an authority, but that idea of separation is very old.

In fact, an interesting theory I once heard is that all spirituality was born from the terrible trauma of that separation. Animals have no philosophical existential worries, their actions are governed by simplicity. If they feel something be it hunger or even love, they feel it totally. Going back to Genesis, the snake intimates to Eve that those instinctive yearnings are just as much the command of God as the intellectual, verbal command he gave them. As far as the snake was concerned, it was right, for that was all it knew. Animals follow the commands of their Maker just like humans.

But once humanity gained intellect (from an evolutionary standpoint) gone was the immediate connection, and suddenly there was doubt. The trauma must have been huge, for animals do, in some form, feel the unity many religions strive for. Paradise was lost. Something had to be done to get that back, and the answer was spiritual thought, philosophy, religion.

Obviously I'm mixing evolution and religion, and neither very well, but I am trying to illustrate how unique humans are. This does not make up "better," but we have had to deal with evolutionary challenges with different tools at our disposal. The brain, ultimately, named itself, which is pretty effed up if you think of it.

Moderator note

A few off topic posts have been removed.

Could we please stick to the topic of 'Can tarot really foretell the future?'

Thanks.

Sulis & Alta - Talking Tarot co-moderators

What I want to know is - if we believe that a reading foretells the future absolutely spot on, and that the future is set in stone - see under predestination - what is the point of getting a reading ?

(Don't knee jerkily react here - wait - )

BECAUSE - a few people have said "we can use that information to get advice on how to prepare for that event we now know about."

But you CAN'T.

BECAUSE - if the future is set in stone, you are already programmed to DO that as well, and programmed for the exact preparations you are believing you are making on the basis of that reading and on the basis of that prediction - so there is no point to it at all.

So either we believe that there is a point to reading, so that we can glean advice on how to achieve better outcomes (my own view) or we believe that the reading accurately predicts the future - in which case all you have gained is foreknowledge, about which you can do exactly nothing, including preparing for it, as your reactions and preparations are already foreordained.

There have been enough examples cited here of how changing the parameters of circumstance and of behaviour has changed the predicted outcome for me to buy into that aspect of it, personally. But for those who believe the reading predicts a set future - where do you go from there ?

I don't believe in the "the future is set in stone" theory myself, and I love doing predictive readings. I am one who is in the camp that says it's one possible outcome of a situation if the client continues upon that particular path. On occasion (rare, but does happen), I'm so certain of the outcome that I just can't budge. But who knows why that should ever be.

I've never been good at the fatalistic view of the world and I'm apt to tell those that embrace it, whenever bad things happen to them, that it must have been part of "the plan" and they should enjoy the ride and rejoice that they're participating in it (ok, so those are the folks for whom my sympathy/empathy wanes *shrugs* )