Poledra
Ah, those pesky fives. How do you perceive them and how does that relate to the images on the cards? Any tips or hints?
Poledra
Poledra
Discussion Group - Fives
rcb30872
As usual, start with the individual cards, and then try to tie it in together at the end.
Five of Pentacles ~ I tend to see this as loss on the material level, not necessary money, but for example health, which is apparent by the boy that is walking along with his leg in plaster and using the crutches. Another interesting thing to note is that they are both walking past a church, the boy is looking up, and the woman is looking down to the ground, which is snow, thus indicating coldness, coldness in spirit, and possibly coldness towards other people and possibly towards themselves. It is interesting that the Pentacles are actually is depicted on the stained glass of the church. Thus indicating that perhaps that is where salvation can be, a place where you can go, which is like a sanctity, and the fact that you can talk to someone that is partial, ie a priest. This can be tied into the Hierophant verily easily, more on that later. So, in this case it could indicate that even though one is at loss, all is not lost, just need to open your eyes and notice what you have, and what is around you, and what can be offered to you, even if it is just advice.
Five of Swords ~ This is one card that I tend to have a little bit of difficulty with, but here goes *deep breath*. Well, I guess it could be seen that there is some sort of victory, but what sort of victory is it? And at what price? I mean the man in the front is smiling, almost smirking, looking at the other two people in the card. The other two have got their back turned to the card, and are further into the background. One is clearly upset, and is crying. It could be a sense of trickery, you know doing someone out of something so you would gain something, this sort of thing can be seen among a group of people, usually colleagues that work for the own company. Sort of spreading rumours, doing things to make themselves look good, while disgracing others, whether that is warranted or not, more than likely not warranted. But at the same time it could be the sense when you know it is time to leave certain things behind in your life, more than likely people, as you know that they are not doing you any favours. And really speaking, you would feel better for it, not having them in your life, but not straight away, it would cause you some pain to begin with, but eventually the pain will be eleviated, and you would see that it was for the best in the long run.
Five of Wands ~ This card is about struggles and conflicts, either intenally or externally. For instance, say, when you have negative thoughts, you can combat those negative thoughts by challenging them. On the other hand, externally, it could be either fighting or trying to build something but at cross purposes with someone else. Since Wands is about action, with little thought, perhaps that might indicate that one person might be doing one thing, and another person might be doing another thing, and it is supposed to be working towards the same thing, but it is not working since there is lack of thought or communication between the participating parties. It might signify that a change of tact is required for a successful outcome.
Five of Cups ~ I tend to think that this is a mourning period after the loss or the finish of something else. The beginning stages of, which you are unable to see the good things that you have gained from the experience, or whatever, all you can focus on the disappointment, the sadness, and what not that it has finished. Unable to see the benefits of such a thing ending. When the time comes, you would be able to notice the things that still remain, the things that are behind you, the things that you have gained, rather than the loss. When you do, you would be able to cross the bridge, so to speak, and treat it just as one of those things, it's just water under the bridge.
Overall, it speaks of loss, perhaps failure, but also about change and crossroads.
The Major Arcana is The Hierophant, as that is 5, and Temperance, as that is 14, which reduces down to 5. As sort of indicated in the Five of Pentacles, it might be just a simple case of going to a sanctuary, somewhere you can find solace in, where someone could counsel you and give advice etc, which relates to The Hierophant. Also, it might indicate that by you going through such experiences you would be able to advise others that are going through the same situation later down the track, as in "Been there, done that, wore the t-shirt." Temperance can be about finding peace after a difficult time, a time of torment, etc. It is about being patient, as well. Also it can be about balance, compromise and sharing, which can sort of go back to the Five of Wands, by doing all of that there would be no need for the struggle and conflict.
Just rambling, I have no idea if that helps!
Five of Pentacles ~ I tend to see this as loss on the material level, not necessary money, but for example health, which is apparent by the boy that is walking along with his leg in plaster and using the crutches. Another interesting thing to note is that they are both walking past a church, the boy is looking up, and the woman is looking down to the ground, which is snow, thus indicating coldness, coldness in spirit, and possibly coldness towards other people and possibly towards themselves. It is interesting that the Pentacles are actually is depicted on the stained glass of the church. Thus indicating that perhaps that is where salvation can be, a place where you can go, which is like a sanctity, and the fact that you can talk to someone that is partial, ie a priest. This can be tied into the Hierophant verily easily, more on that later. So, in this case it could indicate that even though one is at loss, all is not lost, just need to open your eyes and notice what you have, and what is around you, and what can be offered to you, even if it is just advice.
Five of Swords ~ This is one card that I tend to have a little bit of difficulty with, but here goes *deep breath*. Well, I guess it could be seen that there is some sort of victory, but what sort of victory is it? And at what price? I mean the man in the front is smiling, almost smirking, looking at the other two people in the card. The other two have got their back turned to the card, and are further into the background. One is clearly upset, and is crying. It could be a sense of trickery, you know doing someone out of something so you would gain something, this sort of thing can be seen among a group of people, usually colleagues that work for the own company. Sort of spreading rumours, doing things to make themselves look good, while disgracing others, whether that is warranted or not, more than likely not warranted. But at the same time it could be the sense when you know it is time to leave certain things behind in your life, more than likely people, as you know that they are not doing you any favours. And really speaking, you would feel better for it, not having them in your life, but not straight away, it would cause you some pain to begin with, but eventually the pain will be eleviated, and you would see that it was for the best in the long run.
Five of Wands ~ This card is about struggles and conflicts, either intenally or externally. For instance, say, when you have negative thoughts, you can combat those negative thoughts by challenging them. On the other hand, externally, it could be either fighting or trying to build something but at cross purposes with someone else. Since Wands is about action, with little thought, perhaps that might indicate that one person might be doing one thing, and another person might be doing another thing, and it is supposed to be working towards the same thing, but it is not working since there is lack of thought or communication between the participating parties. It might signify that a change of tact is required for a successful outcome.
Five of Cups ~ I tend to think that this is a mourning period after the loss or the finish of something else. The beginning stages of, which you are unable to see the good things that you have gained from the experience, or whatever, all you can focus on the disappointment, the sadness, and what not that it has finished. Unable to see the benefits of such a thing ending. When the time comes, you would be able to notice the things that still remain, the things that are behind you, the things that you have gained, rather than the loss. When you do, you would be able to cross the bridge, so to speak, and treat it just as one of those things, it's just water under the bridge.
Overall, it speaks of loss, perhaps failure, but also about change and crossroads.
The Major Arcana is The Hierophant, as that is 5, and Temperance, as that is 14, which reduces down to 5. As sort of indicated in the Five of Pentacles, it might be just a simple case of going to a sanctuary, somewhere you can find solace in, where someone could counsel you and give advice etc, which relates to The Hierophant. Also, it might indicate that by you going through such experiences you would be able to advise others that are going through the same situation later down the track, as in "Been there, done that, wore the t-shirt." Temperance can be about finding peace after a difficult time, a time of torment, etc. It is about being patient, as well. Also it can be about balance, compromise and sharing, which can sort of go back to the Five of Wands, by doing all of that there would be no need for the struggle and conflict.
Just rambling, I have no idea if that helps!
Poledra
I tend to think of the 5's as a period of change. Everything is in flux and people deal with change in different ways.
Swords
The 5 of swords is a case in point of how people mentally deal with change. Some people are going to come out on top, some walk away to think, while others mourn the change. This is the outcome of the rest seen in the 4 of swords. After contemplating, changes have come to your life and you need to deal with them.
Wands
The 5 of wands is also about attitude and change. 5 men are fighting, maybe mock fighting. There is clearly a lot of competition and adrenaline here, but one needs to step back and ask what is being competed for, is it worth the struggle? Maybe yes, it is worth competing but sometimes it isn't.
Cups
The 5 of cups shows an end to the discontent and withdrawal of the 4 of cups. The man shown comtemplating things he may have lost while withdrawn, mourning lost opportunities. Again, this is about change rather than the end of the story, with two cups behind him ready to start off again after learning the lessons of his loss.
Pentacles
The 5 of pentacles shows a change in material circumstance. One might say that the loss, poverty, and ill health on the RWS could be a result of the greediness and tight control of the 4. You need to spend money to make money, and the people in this card are learning this. They have had a big change and they now need to learn to deal with that, maybe by realizing that help is at hand behind that beautiful window.
The Hierophant is a wise man who helps teach others, guides them along the path of life and helps them realize their mistakes and fix them. This fits well with the meaning of the 5's in general with people learning to deal with change in different ways.
I think Temperance also embodies change and learning to deal with the results.
Poledra
Swords
The 5 of swords is a case in point of how people mentally deal with change. Some people are going to come out on top, some walk away to think, while others mourn the change. This is the outcome of the rest seen in the 4 of swords. After contemplating, changes have come to your life and you need to deal with them.
Wands
The 5 of wands is also about attitude and change. 5 men are fighting, maybe mock fighting. There is clearly a lot of competition and adrenaline here, but one needs to step back and ask what is being competed for, is it worth the struggle? Maybe yes, it is worth competing but sometimes it isn't.
Cups
The 5 of cups shows an end to the discontent and withdrawal of the 4 of cups. The man shown comtemplating things he may have lost while withdrawn, mourning lost opportunities. Again, this is about change rather than the end of the story, with two cups behind him ready to start off again after learning the lessons of his loss.
Pentacles
The 5 of pentacles shows a change in material circumstance. One might say that the loss, poverty, and ill health on the RWS could be a result of the greediness and tight control of the 4. You need to spend money to make money, and the people in this card are learning this. They have had a big change and they now need to learn to deal with that, maybe by realizing that help is at hand behind that beautiful window.
The Hierophant is a wise man who helps teach others, guides them along the path of life and helps them realize their mistakes and fix them. This fits well with the meaning of the 5's in general with people learning to deal with change in different ways.
I think Temperance also embodies change and learning to deal with the results.
Poledra
wytchwood
I see the 5 of cups as regret, and also focusing on the negative. Yes, some cups have spilt, but not all of them. The character chooses not to see the ones which are full and only looks at the spilt ones. I'd say that the proverb: 'there's no use crying over spilt milk' applies here, dwelling on the spilt cups just means missing out on the full ones.
Zoe xx
Zoe xx
re-pete-a
changes ,growth,test of faith, by word (air),deeds(fire),emotional (water)situations(earth)either in or out of one's immediate control(Majors),one's stage of evolvement is being put to the test,trials,or trusts??
HoneyBea
The actual no five has come to represent for me loss, conflict, challenge and it seems to present the opportunity for change. This change can suggest a shift in direction or in struggles and seems to indicate to me a freedom of choice.
Working on this premise then the fives can represent here a turning point in any given situation and it seems that it is the way we handle our freedom of choice that results in the outcome. These cards all present a challenge of sorts and it is how one responds to this challenge - whether you can rise to it or not that indicates whether there is success or stress, conflict and regret.
So fives can then be seen to signify change, expansion,freedom and exploration.
Looking at the individual cards, and how this can be seen:
Five of Wands - how we handle the conflict of competition or the ability to work with others - it's a card that can show how difficulties arise when we try to translate ideas into reality - this is the challenge and how we do that can be the turning point.
Five of Cups - the challenge here is to see the two cups that are left standing - creativity and inspiration - there is a freedom of choice here to stay in the mode of loss and regret or whether to meet the challenge and accept the change and move forward.
Five of Swords - Here the challenge is to recognize one's own limitations and the turning point here is in recognizing them to go beyond them so that one can reassess situations and make the right move towards success - again freedom of choice exists as does the opportunity as in all these cards to expand and explore other possibilities.
Five of Pentacles - the greatest challenge in this card is to be humble enough to ask for help - this is how change is bought about by understanding that sometimes we need to help ourselves by what we choose to do, the challenge in this card is to not lose sight of what is truly important.
Major Arcana card Hierophant is a teacher card, and one of the challenges he represents for us along with the lesson of freedom of choice is to find our own truth rather than blindly follow the doctrines of our society without question.
Temperance reduces to 5 and shows that by widening our outlook we can mix and blend the elements of life to create balance and harmony.
Both these Major Arcana cards bring harmony to the disruptive power of the 5's
So you can see by being in difficult situations we can learn, and expand and explore and bring about change - by our choices we can create turning points in life - whether they are good or bad depends on how you meet the challenge
~HoneyBea~
Working on this premise then the fives can represent here a turning point in any given situation and it seems that it is the way we handle our freedom of choice that results in the outcome. These cards all present a challenge of sorts and it is how one responds to this challenge - whether you can rise to it or not that indicates whether there is success or stress, conflict and regret.
So fives can then be seen to signify change, expansion,freedom and exploration.
Looking at the individual cards, and how this can be seen:
Five of Wands - how we handle the conflict of competition or the ability to work with others - it's a card that can show how difficulties arise when we try to translate ideas into reality - this is the challenge and how we do that can be the turning point.
Five of Cups - the challenge here is to see the two cups that are left standing - creativity and inspiration - there is a freedom of choice here to stay in the mode of loss and regret or whether to meet the challenge and accept the change and move forward.
Five of Swords - Here the challenge is to recognize one's own limitations and the turning point here is in recognizing them to go beyond them so that one can reassess situations and make the right move towards success - again freedom of choice exists as does the opportunity as in all these cards to expand and explore other possibilities.
Five of Pentacles - the greatest challenge in this card is to be humble enough to ask for help - this is how change is bought about by understanding that sometimes we need to help ourselves by what we choose to do, the challenge in this card is to not lose sight of what is truly important.
Major Arcana card Hierophant is a teacher card, and one of the challenges he represents for us along with the lesson of freedom of choice is to find our own truth rather than blindly follow the doctrines of our society without question.
Temperance reduces to 5 and shows that by widening our outlook we can mix and blend the elements of life to create balance and harmony.
Both these Major Arcana cards bring harmony to the disruptive power of the 5's
So you can see by being in difficult situations we can learn, and expand and explore and bring about change - by our choices we can create turning points in life - whether they are good or bad depends on how you meet the challenge
~HoneyBea~
Poledra
HoneyBea, that was a great post. You really hit the nail on the head I think. I particularly like your way of looking at the 5 of wands as the challenges that appear when you attempt to manifest your ideas into reality. Doesn't that scene totally fit the way it feels to fight bureaucracy to set something in motion - always one more hurdle that you don't understand the point of! Teamwork!
Brilliant, thank you!
Poledra
Brilliant, thank you!
Poledra
HoneyBea
Poledra said:
I'm glad you liked it Poledra
Lavandula
I see fives as instability, conflict, loss, or an opportunity for change. Think of the stability of four and then add a dot in the middle to give it a point to pivot on. Just some nice imagery I thought I'd share.
Teheuti
All the fives partake of the fifth sephira on the Tree of Life - Geburah ("saving fire"). It includes such ideas as severity, judgment, harshness, fear, and strife. With Mars as the planet corresponding to Geburah, it breaks down form, is both courageous and destructive, and generates responsibility in the use of power. It protects us from outside forces and constrains us from within—so that we develop the discipline and will to meet our challenges. Its archangel is Khamael who is protector of the weak and avenger of the wronged.
It is also the expression of (or struggle to express) the personal will. It strives for adaptation in the face of rigidity and dogma (negative Hierophant).
Waite explains in his Adeptus Minor Ritual: “Before the union can take place, everything that belongs to separation must go absolutely - without dispensation, without remission, without mercy." The union is the sacred marriage between the Hierophant and the Shekinah. The Minor Arcana represent the struggle (or striving) to separate out what must go. It is the purifying of desire (Geburah/Mars). "In Geburah you are taught how to die."
Geburah is a rite of Nuptials, the marriage night of the soul, the secret of death therein, and the resurrection in the Rose (Shekinah).
“Geburah can be withstood only by those who have restrained their concupiscence. . . . [The place where you] assume unto thyself the life which is in the midst of death belonging to our natural humanity.” [Adeptus Major Ritual]
Geburah (6=5) is the day of your bridal, the end to a life of separation and the death of all that hinders the joy of ineffable union. . . . Pass on through death to life, knowing that this death is a secret of the union, and that the life to come is a glorious life of resurrection. [Adeptus Major Ritual]
“It is written that the eternal fount of love is found in Geburah, though this is also the place of judgment.” [Adeptus Major Ritual]
“Geburah is a place of desire for the salvation of the world.” [Adeptus Exemptus Ritual]
In the Grail and Masonic myths that Waite and Smith were illustrating we find:
Cups - there was a famine among the followers of Joseph of Ariamathea.
Wands - There follow “five years of hard adventure in Quest and Errantry” in which Perceval “remembered nothing of God.”
Pentacles - In the story of Hiram Abif (the architect of the Temple of Solomon) this represents the loss of the Word and the period of decay, the poverty of spirit and denuded condition of those who have not as yet been enriched by the secret knowledge of the Holy and Royal Art.
Swords - shows those who were denounced at the Graal table who ‘went forth out of the house of Joseph covered in shame.’ The sword’s resoldering was a test of each questing knight, who all fail. In Masonry, it is the discord among the brethren.
In essence, the fives are a winnowing of all those individuals and qualities which would hold back the quest and ultimate union.
Added later: I only mention all the above because we're discussing the RWS Fives in the History and Iconography section. I assume that in studying this particular deck here there's an interest in including the background material that directly informed the deck.
This shouldn't negate or take away from all the other great insights that arise directly by using these images.
Mary
It is also the expression of (or struggle to express) the personal will. It strives for adaptation in the face of rigidity and dogma (negative Hierophant).
Waite explains in his Adeptus Minor Ritual: “Before the union can take place, everything that belongs to separation must go absolutely - without dispensation, without remission, without mercy." The union is the sacred marriage between the Hierophant and the Shekinah. The Minor Arcana represent the struggle (or striving) to separate out what must go. It is the purifying of desire (Geburah/Mars). "In Geburah you are taught how to die."
Geburah is a rite of Nuptials, the marriage night of the soul, the secret of death therein, and the resurrection in the Rose (Shekinah).
“Geburah can be withstood only by those who have restrained their concupiscence. . . . [The place where you] assume unto thyself the life which is in the midst of death belonging to our natural humanity.” [Adeptus Major Ritual]
Geburah (6=5) is the day of your bridal, the end to a life of separation and the death of all that hinders the joy of ineffable union. . . . Pass on through death to life, knowing that this death is a secret of the union, and that the life to come is a glorious life of resurrection. [Adeptus Major Ritual]
“It is written that the eternal fount of love is found in Geburah, though this is also the place of judgment.” [Adeptus Major Ritual]
“Geburah is a place of desire for the salvation of the world.” [Adeptus Exemptus Ritual]
In the Grail and Masonic myths that Waite and Smith were illustrating we find:
Cups - there was a famine among the followers of Joseph of Ariamathea.
Wands - There follow “five years of hard adventure in Quest and Errantry” in which Perceval “remembered nothing of God.”
Pentacles - In the story of Hiram Abif (the architect of the Temple of Solomon) this represents the loss of the Word and the period of decay, the poverty of spirit and denuded condition of those who have not as yet been enriched by the secret knowledge of the Holy and Royal Art.
Swords - shows those who were denounced at the Graal table who ‘went forth out of the house of Joseph covered in shame.’ The sword’s resoldering was a test of each questing knight, who all fail. In Masonry, it is the discord among the brethren.
In essence, the fives are a winnowing of all those individuals and qualities which would hold back the quest and ultimate union.
Added later: I only mention all the above because we're discussing the RWS Fives in the History and Iconography section. I assume that in studying this particular deck here there's an interest in including the background material that directly informed the deck.
This shouldn't negate or take away from all the other great insights that arise directly by using these images.
Mary
