Fate vs. Free Will

stardancer

Hi, Dave.

My take on this, is astrology offers the scenarios for fate to step in and the free will comes where you decide what actions to take. This probably doesn't account so much for accidents, though. If one were having transiting Uranus conjunct Natal Mars, like I have going on now, there probably will be a car accident. I remember I wasn't paying attention as I should, which I think everyone does at brief intervals while they are driving, square or no. The accident would seem to involve another vehicle, with fate stepping in of sorts. I think there is Fate and there is Free Will. You just have to observe the pattern and try to figure it all out. Kinda like the lotto and counting cards. :D
 

isthmus nekoi

We had a discussion about this a while back where a number of different perspectives were shared.

Personally, I don't think there can be some overarcing rule like "the stars impell, they don't compell". The ability to have free will is not equal for everyone. I think we can at least agree that children do not have the mental capacity to act upon free will in the way an adult does.
 

dadsnook2000

The cosmic schedule

One part of astrology that I always try to keep in mind is that astrology, or the cosmic cycle on display above us, is much like a train or bus schedule in a city.

While we have our choices and initiate the start of our trip (and this is in our control), starting on our trip puts us into a series of cycles that will greatly influence our journey: 1) the schedule that is expected to be relevant, 2) the actual progress of the train or bus as it move along its route and makes its stops, 3) the number of people taking and leaving our vehicle and the time it takes to board or depart, 4) and, finally, the interactions that we may have and may not have with some of those passengers.

The point is that we have our own cycle of experience that extends out from the natal chart. At many points in our lives we jump onto a more local cycle of events. At all times we are likely to be interacting with the natal charts and local cycles of several others -- each of them compromizing how we act within our own inclinations.

Its all very complex. When I stop to think deeply about it I always wonder how we ever get it to work so well. Just some thoughts. Dave
 

rachnasingh

Who You Are And Why Have You Been Made That Way

I do believe in planets and their movements.. I have seen that every "move" we "make" is because "we have to make". Astrology when studied scientifically can give many insights into the planetary movements . We have a certain specific constellation of stars which is there at the time of our birth. That particular configuration is all compulsive and binding , What so ever we do we cannot go beyond that . Its difficult to understand that but once we do it we can understand ourselfs better. Also it important that we understand the TRUTH , of this configuration and also we accept it . This configuration cannot be changed. We were born with this configuration . We cannot go beyond the path set by this configuration because we cannot move any 'planet" to our desired position!! in our birth chart. The study of our birth chart for the purpose of studying our ownselfs is a good excercise to see "light".

Most of us when we visit a astrologer want to find out what the future holds but I feel that we should understand what we are given with . A good astrologer has no remedies for the problems he only has studies to make you understand WHO YOU ARE AND WHY HAVE YOU BEEN MADE THAT WAY.
 

dadsnook2000

For rachnasingh

You said, "I have seen that every "move" we "make" is because "we have to make". I can't agree with the tone of that and some of the other "compulsive" views you have expressed. This is, of course, my opinion.

I have found in the many years I have practiced astrology that many people utilize much of their chart, but not all of it. Some people don't resonate with their Sun at all but instead seem very "Lunar" in nature and in the way the respond to life. I for instance, have no resonance with Pluto in my chart and virtually no resonance with Uranus.

I have also found that most people who play an active role in their own lives tend to reshape and change the way they respond to many aspects in their chart, sometimes growing beyond the chart as they move thru life. Perhaps others with astrological experience will offer their comments and views as this is always a prime concern to many -- "Are we our charts, or are our charts ours to use as we learn to use them?" Dave
 

rachnasingh

dadsnook2000 said:
You said, "I have seen that every "move" we "make" is because "we have to make". I can't agree with the tone of that and some of the other "compulsive" views you have expressed. This is, of course, my opinion.

I have found in the many years I have practiced astrology that many people utilize much of their chart, but not all of it. Some people don't resonate with their Sun at all but instead seem very "Lunar" in nature and in the way the respond to life. I for instance, have no resonance with Pluto in my chart and virtually no resonance with Uranus.

I have also found that most people who play an active role in their own lives tend to reshape and change the way they respond to many aspects in their chart, sometimes growing beyond the chart as they move thru life. Perhaps others with astrological experience will offer their comments and views as this is always a prime concern to many -- "Are we our charts, or are our charts ours to use as we learn to use them?" Dave

Are we our charts i think we are
 

Ross G Caldwell

I'm a "strict" determinist in the philosophical sense. I believe that however complex or unpredictable anything might be, for an infinite mind the outcome of everything would be already known.

Even the uncertainty of subatomic events, the famous "Heisenberg 'Uncertainty Principle'" seems to me to be merely a limitation of our intellects, rather than an indication of true randomness in the universe. In other words, whatever happens is determined by what has come before, even if we don't understand it empirically or theoretically.

So for astrology, the planets are part of the causality of our lives, part of our environment that affects us, but they are not all, and not even nearly all. So it is impossible to predict every event in our lives with accuracy by astrology, although the biggest physical trends and subtle psychological energies - our character - are decipherable by it, or should be. I suppose the more stable the person, in a steady environment, the more predictable by astrology they will be. Particularly physical health and emotional states.

Could astrology say "There is a risk of death from being hit by a car on this day"? I think the chart would say something like "there is risk of death from inattention to quickly oncoming dangers in the environment". This might be indicated by an aspect showing inattention, combined with a planet like Mars transiting a sensitive part of the chart (perhaps because of its relation to blood and the metal iron).

Future events are spikes in probability of certain events, given the indelible features of our character and environment, but astrological predictions are never set in stone. The skill of the astrologer, the breadth of perception, is all important. That is, the subtle events or circumstances are highly probable and often unavoidable, but we can make preparations.
 

rachnasingh

Ross G Caldwell said:
the subtle events or circumstances are highly probable and often unavoidable, but we can make preparations.


we can do every thing to prepare ourselfs but that the event will occur is there is the in birth chart itself
these events are unavoideable true
how accurately we can undersstand them we can understand ourselfs
i feel so
 

Ross G Caldwell

rachnasingh said:
we can do every thing to prepare ourselfs but that the event will occur is there is the in birth chart itself
these events are unavoideable true
how accurately we can undersstand them we can understand ourselfs
i feel so

My own belief is that one's birth chart alone cannot predict every event in one's life. It *could*, but the knowledge of the astrologer would have to be almost infinite. Really, there are other influences that can come out of the blue, that could have been predicted but that no-one could be expected to have known.

Astrology is better at showing trends and probabilities, and often almost certain events; but never with absolute confidence. Nothing can be relied on to predict with absolute certainty.

The birth chart is like a grid or a web that determines character (in my view). It is made up of zones of influence (signs and houses), which are ultimately determined by the horizon at the time of birth - the all important difference between night and day - in the personality as much as on the Earth. Those are the fixed parts. The planets are the moving parts - the real forces as well as the archetypes they produce in the soul.

The subsequent movement of the planets through this character map or chart is then like the weaving of a web of influences, where certain stresses - aspects - develop and get resolved in different ways.

Making predictions based on these aspects is very tricky, and depends as much on knowing the physical environment of the native as the chart itself.

For a completely deterministic prediction, you'd have to know quite a few charts for the same day and time and in the same area. Then if you found areas of confluence, you could pinpoint the event with much greater accuracy.
 

dadsnook2000

Is anyone missing the point?

Astrology is not just a "personal" thing. The sky above us is above all of us. Not only do we have a birth chart, but everyone else has one also. There is great interaction between all of those charts -- the words "influence" and "compromise" and "dominance" and "partnership" all come to mind.

Then, throw in the changing patterns suggested by progressions and other forms and methodologies of astrological practice -- all of which chart change and growth in individuals and in society. We are born to grow and learn; this in itself suggests changes in us and in how we interact with others.

WHAT CHANGES? Changes that alter the ways and depths of how we both use our charts and the many patterns within them, as well as choose not to use portions of our charts. We start with a chart, we end up with many charts and many changes in our charts -- and in turn we change and are changed by the people we interact with. No, I say, a single chart is not a "complete and fated" outcome in celestial code -- its a launching pad thru life and beyond. Dave